desensitized43 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 7 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I'm not sure I agree. It's not Arab nations that will make Israel stop their occupation, it's the West. In the West almost everyone has seen what Hamas have done and been pushed far from what they stand for. Yes, it might hurt trade or a deal with SA for Israel, but it'll hurt almost every Westerner's perception of Palestine and Hamas as a result. If you ask the average voter in any democracy in Europe what they think about when you say Hamas, I'm sure you'll also see what most of the power players internationally feel. Frankly the stuff I’ve heard this morning about what Hamas insurgents did to children I wouldn’t be shocked if Israel went and carpet bombed Gaza. Beheading babies? There’s no excuse for that regardless of how angry and “pushed” you are. Obviously you need to try and have restraint but there’s some things that are so vile that they won’t be inclined to mercy and let’s be honest, after that who can really blame them. What hamas have done is truly revolting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Bit like using phosphorus bombs against hospitals or settlers putting kids in cages and burning them alive. Both side commits horrors but one side has the media and the lobbyist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 11, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, sne said: Bit like using phosphorus bombs against hospitals or settlers putting kids in cages and burning them alive. Both side commits horrors but one side has the media and the lobbyist. I think for this conflict to move on, we need to stop with the but arguments. You can trace this back to 1945, and before then back to when Salahadin recaptured the area from knights doing what Hamas is now doing, who had captured it from Jews\Muslims\Orthodox Christians who had been doing to each other just what we're seeing now. IDF\Israel have committed and are committing atrocities. Hamas have committed and are committing atrocities. One doesn't really need to put a but behind everything in order to defend what the side one has sympathy for is doing. Frankly the leadership of both groups should be in the Hague so that the population of each group can get some peace. Blindly supporting either side is like hedging your bets on groups committing atrocities in one way or another. There are peaceful alternatives on both sides, PLO and Fatah on one side, and Meretz and its coalition on the other. They never get a word in because of their hyperbolic right wing/religious zealots opposites take all the oxygen, supported by blinkered people to each side in the West, like for example certain groups on the left in the UK celebrating what Hamas have done as some sort of 'great event', even when confronted with the terror, or Israelis camping out to watch Gaza get carpet bombed. Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 26 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Frankly the stuff I’ve heard this morning about what Hamas insurgents did to children I wouldn’t be shocked if Israel went and carpet bombed Gaza. Beheading babies? There’s no excuse for that regardless of how angry and “pushed” you are. Obviously you need to try and have restraint but there’s some things that are so vile that they won’t be inclined to mercy and let’s be honest, after that who can really blame them. What hamas have done is truly revolting. Just catching up on this . I have no words other than revenge will be an understatement from Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 I’ve really tried to keep an open mind over this but…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 29 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Frankly the stuff I’ve heard this morning about what Hamas insurgents did to children I wouldn’t be shocked if Israel went and carpet bombed Gaza. Beheading babies? There’s no excuse for that regardless of how angry and “pushed” you are. Obviously you need to try and have restraint but there’s some things that are so vile that they won’t be inclined to mercy and let’s be honest, after that who can really blame them. What hamas have done is truly revolting. I've seen reported elsewhere that this was nonsense. I don't know either way tbf and clearly Hamas have committed obvious war crimes anyway but is this specific example actually true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, sne said: Bit like using phosphorus bombs against hospitals or settlers putting kids in cages and burning them alive. Both side commits horrors but one side has the media and the lobbyist. Whataboutism just makes it look like you’re trying to excuse or justify it. Are you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 31 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: What hamas have done is truly revolting. It's nothing worse than what Israel have been doing to Palestine for decades. Unlike in Northern Ireland it's hard to see a peaceful end to the war in Israel/Palestine. Certainly not when people like Netenayu are being elected in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 The pictures on the TV of the destruction of buildings by Israeli bombs is unreal, just terrible. I believe they have some proper gear, unlike Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, Rodders said: I've seen reported elsewhere that this was nonsense. I don't know either way tbf and clearly Hamas have committed obvious war crimes anyway but is this specific example actually true? Apparently some guy in Turkey's army have said it isn't true, but Reuters are running with the story. Lots of people have been massacred with machetes and knives in kibbutzes in either case. How an Israeli kibbutz 'paradise' turned into hell in Hamas attack Quote "Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden," Israeli Major General Itai Veruv said on Tuesday, the seasoned soldier visibly shaken as troops went door-to-door to collect the bodies of residents killed in their homes. "It's not a war, it's not a battlefield. It's a massacre," Veruv said. Some victims were decapitated, he added. "I've never seen anything like this, and I've served for 40 years." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 Egypt are still refusing to open their border to Gaza to let civilians out. If you thought Israel is the only country to mistreat Palestinians, you're wrong. Palestine is used by all its Arab neighbours as a permanent thorn in their enemy's side, but when Palestine needs help these same actors often go eerily silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: Egypt are still refusing to open their border to Gaza to let civilians out. If you thought Israel is the only country to mistreat Palestinians, you're wrong. Palestine is used by all its Arab neighbours as a permanent thorn in their enemy's side, but when Palestine needs help these same actors often go eerily silent. Egypt has enough problems with terrorists / terrorism. It's already half destroyed their tourism industry. Last thing they want is to import a few million people who were daft enough to vote for Hamas + however many Hamas insurgents are left. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 10 hours ago, Rustibrooks said: Thank goodness the story about hamas beheading children was fake it doesn't matter if it's true or not. Now it's taken hold, and it's the undoubted truth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 23 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: The pictures on the TV of the destruction of buildings by Israeli bombs is unreal, just terrible. I believe they have some proper gear, unlike Russia. I think I read they're the most well-armed army in the world. They could wipe Gaza off the face of the planet from a distance easily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 28 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Whataboutism just makes it look like you’re trying to excuse or justify it. Are you? Obviously not. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 9 minutes ago, pas5898 said: Egypt has enough problems with terrorists / terrorism. It's already half destroyed their tourism industry. Last thing they want is to import a few million people who were daft enough to vote for Hamas + however many Hamas insurgents are left. It's just the sheer hypocrisy that gets me. These states are happy for Hamas to do what they're doing, but they refuse to aid the civilians that are under the heel of Hamas when the repercussions come. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 21 minutes ago, sne said: Obviously not. Then why is your first reaction to say "well Israel did x"? Is there any justification in your mind for someone to enter someones home and behead their children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 1 minute ago, desensitized43 said: Then why is your first reaction to say "well Israel did x"? Is there any justification in your mind for someone to enter someones home and behead their children? Well, no. But it also (likely) isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 observations - hopefully free of whataboutery which I agree doesn't lead anywhere. 1) The recent events have made the Palestinian plight a live issue once again. 2) There is a clear media bias in the UK favouring the Israeli position. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 11, 2023 Share Posted October 11, 2023 2 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Then why is your first reaction to say "well Israel did x"? Is there any justification in your mind for someone to enter someones home and behead their children? With respect - you're getting carried away - nobody on here feels anything other than sick reading about what has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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