General Election 2017

[Awol]

10 hours ago, Ingram85 said:

I'm fed up of the top heavy majority population of white geriatrics living in their inward white enclaves with their little englander white friends having too much of a say in elections. 

Its an uphill struggle to combat this limiting/narrow way of living but there are just too many to fight against. Meanwhile everyone else is fighting each other so we are too split to come together to fight against the tide of conservative/ukip shite. 

I'm a liberal minded NHS worker, technically still married to an Indian girl and slowly falling in love with a Polish girl. Every facet of my being is being targeted by this word removed of a government an it feels like I don't belong in this country anymore. 

Worth pointing out that your post is ageist, racist and anti democratic. 

Old people have exactly the same right to vote as you or other younger folks, even though they have by definition most likely contributed more in terms of taxation than you to the country. It is good and democratic that you have an equal voice, despite your lesser financial contribution.  

The repeated references to "white" ethnicity like that's either surprising in a majority white country or somehow inherently bad is disturbing and indicates an anti white mentality, which would be racist. "Too many to fight against"? Have a word...

To then describe yourself as liberal with no trace of irony is so wrong that if you were selling something you'd be done under the Trade Descriptions Act.

That the Left in the UK resembles the Judean People's Front is the fault and perennial failing of the Left itself. While it may be comforting to lash out with illiberal, racist and anti democratic diatribes it's never going to solve the core problem: your arguments are currently too weak to convince moderate centrist voters. 

When Labour understood that they swept all before them, but flaunting imagined moral superiorities while condemning those who don't share this fantasy is not going to get Labour or any Left party into power. 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Awol

[blandy]

12 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Ssoooo....if reports are correct, Jeremy Corbyn is at a victory thing in Manchester. Andy Burnham isn't there and the local Labour MP isn't there as she wasn't invited.

Andy Burnham wasn't invited either. Way to go jezza 

 

[jon_c]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

Andy Burnham wasn't invited either. Way to go jezza 

 

I'm mean come on.

If this is true, it's the sort of political incompetence I expect to see in Yes Minister or The Thick of It. How can someone get to be the leader of a major party, but have so little awareness of how to run a campaign and control his own public image.

You can say but Jezza does things his way. But that"s just the equivalent of trying to send everyone a fax, when the rest of the world uses email.  

[Risso]

50 minutes ago, Awol said:

Worth pointing out that your post is ageist, racist and anti democratic. 

Old people have exactly the same right to vote as you or other younger folks, even though they have by definition most likely contributed more in terms of taxation than you to the country. It is good and democratic that you have an equal voice, despite your lesser financial contribution.  

The repeated references to "white" ethnicity like that's either surprising in a majority white country or somehow inherently bad is disturbing and indicates an anti white mentality, which would be racist. "Too many to fight against"? Have a word...

To then describe yourself as liberal with no trace of irony is so wrong that if you were selling something you'd be done under the Trade Descriptions Act.

That the Left in the UK resembles the Judean People's Front is the fault and perennial failing of the Left itself. While it may be comforting to lash out with illiberal, racist and anti democratic diatribes it's never going to solve the core problem: your arguments are currently too weak to convince moderate centrist voters. 

When Labour understood that they swept all before them, but flaunting imagined moral superiorities while condemning those who don't share this fantasy is not going to get Labour or any Left party into power. 

 

Agreed, an absolutely disgraceful post.  Trying far too hard and failing spectacularly.

[HanoiVillan]

3 minutes ago, Risso said:

Agreed, an absolutely disgraceful post.  Trying far too hard and failing spectacularly.

I'm not seeing how it's 'absolutely disgraceful'. 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

Worth pointing out that your post is ageist, racist and anti democratic. 

Old people have exactly the same right to vote as you or other younger folks, even though they have by definition most likely contributed more in terms of taxation than you to the country. It is good and democratic that you have an equal voice, despite your lesser financial contribution.  

The repeated references to "white" ethnicity like that's either surprising in a majority white country or somehow inherently bad is disturbing and indicates an anti white mentality, which would be racist. "Too many to fight against"? Have a word...

I think you're being a bit harsh on him and should maybe try and see things from his perspective.

He works for an organisation that is being brought to its knees by this government. He is in love with a girl who if she lives in the UK may not be able to stay here in a couple of years. It is no surprise he may be a little angry.

The point you make about elderly people having an equal voice is a fair one. I am not sure what relevance how much someone has paid into the system has though.

The issue of older people and how they vote and what they vote based on is interesting and whether they vote on issues that mainly affect them or whether enough of them do care about what country the generations that follow them face. How much tuition fees concern them, the drop in living standards, the increases in working poor, the lack of affordable houses and social housing, education issues, the decimation of the welfare safety net for those of working age. Maybe some younger people feel many of the issues listed aren't a concern to a lot of older people and they are voting for more selfish reasons.

I guess the bottom line is though that younger people have a responsibility here to get out and vote and many of them don't. If a party could really engage them then they would be onto a real winner. I think potentially Labour has many policies that on paper at least should entice them. They just have the wrong people presenting them.

Edited May 6, 2017 by markavfc40

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on him and should maybe try and see things from his perspective.

He works for an organisation that is being brought to its knees by this government. He is in love with a girl who if she lives in the UK may not be able to stay here in a couple of years. It is no surprise he may be a little angry.

Agreed. I get the frustration and anger part and agree with it. It's just that in venting, the wrong target is chosen and hypocrisy appears, too, in the form of picking on one section of society and wrongly blaming them, while complaining about people fighting each other

Quote

 

I'm fed up of the top heavy majority population of white geriatrics living in their inward white enclaves with their little englander white friends having too much of a say in elections. 

...there are just too many to fight against. Meanwhile everyone else is fighting each other so we are too split to come together to fight....

 

 

[markavfc40]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

Agreed. I get the frustration and anger part and agree with it. It's just that in venting, the wrong target is chosen and hypocrisy appears, too, in the form of picking on one section of society and wrongly blaming them, while complaining about people fighting each other

 

 

Pete I agree he is targeting his anger at the wrong people and even if some voters are old little Englander's there are enough younger more open minded and tolerant people of voting age in this country to comfortably counteract that. Not enough of them are voting though. Maybe they are the ones he needs to be targeting his anger at.

I feel for people like him though. People who have been driven to feel like they don't belong here. There is a huge divide in this country that this Government is doing nothing to address. In fact, backed up by much of the right wing media, they are doing the opposite and feeding into it.

[Xann]

Personally, I don't find this...

... Nearly as offensive as this...

... A collection of millionaires voting to cut benefits for the disabled.

Reds under the beds still an issue? Are we in 50s America?

We're all staring at computers filled with Chinese components.

If you're worried about the red menace shut down and walk away now.

[wazzap24]

8 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not saying it's image Chindie, I'm agreeing it's credibility - it's just not policy credibility. It's a choice between voting for capable people who will do things you don't want and incapable people who suggest all the right things and leave you feeling they'll probably mess them up. What would be ideal would be Labour's policies carried out by the Conservative party.

 

What grips me the most is that the Tory party are somehow being viewed as 'credible' or 'capable'

Their recent record is absolutely appalling. They have failed to meet any of their fiscal targets, failed on immigration, failed on the universal benefits system, failed on improving living standards, failed on child poverty, the NHS is in a right state - it goes on and on and on. How by any measure can people see them as credible or capable. 

If the UK was a company and the Tory party were consultants, hired to come in and improve things, they would have been sacked before they even got half way through the contract. It's utterly mind blowing that they are about to be given an even bigger mandate to continue the failure. 

We are going to be lumbered with utter incompetence, becuase the alternative choices are even more incompetent. It's genuinely sad and massively infuriating. 

 

[Ingram85]

Yeah my post was pure frustration and if im honest, a little bit of helplessness. It was wrong to mention old white people I realise but that is one of the main demographics I get annoyed with, among others. Of course its their democratic right to vote the way they do, doesn't mean I have to like it or shut up about it and vice versa.

"Absolutely disgusting post". Your post attacks someone way more than mine and more personally too as is Awol's post. Need to look in the mirror first perhaps chaps before spouting high horsed bilge.

[chrisp65]

20 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

What grips me the most is that the Tory party are somehow being viewed as 'credible' or 'capable'

Their recent record is absolutely appalling. They have failed to meet any of their fiscal targets, failed on immigration, failed on the universal benefits system, failed on improving living standards, failed on child poverty, the NHS is in a right state - it goes on and on and on. How by any measure can people see them as credible or capable. 

For some reason, all this, plus May's lies about euro gossip or euro leaks and her voting record and her strong and stable robotnics and her horrible sneeering temper are all off limits.

A credible media would be poking fun day after day at a bunch of millionaires and wannabes and public school chums that don't have a clue, but know that if we can privatise another prison or tender out another health function or squeeze another state run comp., then there's another consultancy in it for them at the end of their political career. Not even before the end in most cases, eh Giideon?

 

[Ingram85]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on him and should maybe try and see things from his perspective.

He works for an organisation that is being brought to its knees by this government. He is in love with a girl who if she lives in the UK may not be able to stay here in a couple of years. It is no surprise he may be a little angry.

The point you make about elderly people having an equal voice is a fair one. I am not sure what relevance how much someone has paid into the system has though.

The issue of older people and how they vote and what they vote based on is interesting and whether they vote on issues that mainly affect them or whether enough of them do care about what country the generations that follow them face. How much tuition fees concern them, the drop in living standards, the increases in working poor, the lack of affordable houses and social housing, education issues, the decimation of the welfare safety net for those of working age. Maybe some younger people feel many of the issues listed aren't a concern to a lot of older people and they are voting for more selfish reasons.

I guess the bottom line is though that younger people have a responsibility here to get out and vote and many of them don't. If a party could really engage them then they would be onto a real winner. I think potentially Labour has many policies that on paper at least should entice them. They just have the wrong people presenting them.

Thank you so much for this post, it quite perfectly sums up how I'm feeling which led to a heartfelt, confused and conflicted post. Plus yours and others posts showing where I went a bit astray too also helps, unlike the hypocritical ones which just attack me 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Ingram85

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Xann said:

Personally, I don't find this...

... Nearly as offensive as this...

... A collection of millionaires voting to cut benefits for the disabled.

Reds under the beds still an issue? Are we in 50s America?

We're all staring at computers filled with Chinese components.

If you're worried about the red menace shut down and walk away now.

The biggest problem in this picture is the guy standing up to talk. He's clueless, idiotic and has no idea how to run a party that isn't a minority social justice league. Labour is dying and no one wants to address it because "the hardliners" like it this way. The old core labour voters are tired of the weird agenda Corbyn and his team has put forward, even if he has some good policies they get drowned out by the flagrant disregard he has for discourse, leadership and appealing to what labour is about. He's let it turn into something that is more suitable on a university campus rather than a political party before the students wake up, get a job and realise that life isn't about protesting by lying across the m4 by Heathrow, throwing eggs at people and feeling victimised for everything that goes wrong.

Also, if you pan the camera around most of the labour MP's earn 6 figure sums a year and are just as much millionaires as the Conservative MP's. JC earns a staggering 137k a year for doing the job he does BEFORE even mentioning the cash he takes in on going to countries like Palestine to hold talks. Let's be a bit more unbiased when it comes to how rich our MP's are. There is very little difference between them in that respect, they're all filthy rich and living off our taxes.

Edited May 6, 2017 by magnkarl

[Awol]

1 hour ago, Ingram85 said:

Yeah my post was pure frustration and if im honest, a little bit of helplessness. It was wrong to mention old white people I realise but that is one of the main demographics I get annoyed with, among others. Of course its their democratic right to vote the way they do, doesn't mean I have to like it or shut up about it and vice versa.

"Absolutely disgusting post". Your post attacks someone way more than mine and more personally too as is Awol's post. Need to look in the mirror first perhaps chaps before spouting high horsed bilge.

I didn't attack you, I pointed out what was clearly wrong with what you wrote. 

Responding with 'yeah I was wrong but get off your high horse and look in the mirror' confirms (imo) the narcissism underpinning that whole world view. 

Some posters on here who have argued passionately about big stuff over many years can and have changed their views in the light of evidence.

Saying "I was wrong" and leaving it there is a mark (again imo) of maturity and intellectual honesty that makes it very easy to respect them, despite disagreeing over so much.

[Ingram85]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

I didn't attack you, I pointed out what was clearly wrong with what you wrote. 

Responding with 'yeah I was wrong but get off your high horse and look in the mirror' confirms (imo) the narcissism underpinning that whole world view. 

Some posters on here who have argued passionately about big stuff over many years can and have changed their views in the light of evidence.

Saying "I was wrong" and leaving it there is a mark (again imo) of maturity and intellectual honesty that makes it very easy to respect them, despite disagreeing over so much.

I've already said that parts of what I said were ill judged, I still stand by some of it though and I don't think being against close mindedness is a hypocritical trait of being liberal. I'm all for a zero border world and particularly a UK that is willing to accept people from all corners of the world, standing against people who want to keep it closed up against 'brown faces' or 'them eastern European lot' or people fleeing here for safety does not make me less liberal, on the contrary. I'm on the liberal spectrum, I never said I was the exact personification of literal liberalism.

I'll leave it here though, I'm fully aware of my knowledge limitations when it comes to politics and less than stellar ability of articulating how I truly feel once I've woken up and am clear minded with people with more perceived intelligence than myself. Yes I was wrong in parts of my post. The sentiment remains though. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Ingram85

[snowychap]

40 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

JC earns a staggering 137k a year for doing the job he does BEFORE even mentioning the cash he takes in on going to countries like Palestine to hold talks.

Could you give us detail(s) on this, please?

Edited May 6, 2017 by snowychap

[Rodders]

40 percent of 18-25 year olds vote, 75% of the over 65s do. Roughly - according to the article a few pages back. Want the politicians to chase your vote? get out there and vote.

( ThoughI do also think the idea of chasing a vote is inherently depressing, just come up with good ideas in and of themselves that try and do their best for most people across the spectrum regardless please ) 

There is plenty of sleight of hand distraction, not least provoked by those with the influence to get people arguing over nonsense issues, whilst quietly pursuing other policies. The lobbying register a few years ago was an absolute waste of time, we still have very little transparency and whilst that's the case, it'll be bizarre emotional appeals playing on fear for votes, or bizarre jingoist bollocks that takes up headlines, whilst the matter of more entrenched problems are ignored or passed on for the next lot to deal with / handle with a pithy PR line that means nothing. 

It's quite intentional stirring up the racist shit and that's very depressing, directing people to inexplicably ludicious beliefs in a "simple" solution. There are none, but get far too many voters believing life is all better with a magic pill solution - be it closing borders, leaving the EU (  )  getting back blue passports, etc - and likewise investment schemes without plans etc, insults everyone, helps no-one and leads us all being very pissed off an annoyed that nothing ever really get's done. 

 

[magnkarl]

9 hours ago, snowychap said:

Could you give us detail(s) on this, please?

Yep, no problem. Search for Corbyn Press TV in google and read a few articles on his talks to Iranian TV (one of many examples). Corbyn is paid to hold talks just like May and any other high standing politician is. His extreme attitudes towards wealth are just a bit hypocritical when he'll gladly take money from Iran and quite extreme left leaning parts of our society to flout his agenda.

[chrisp65]

52 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

 going to countries like Palestine to hold talks.

What countries like Palestine has he been to?

Just list a few, no need for clever links, just say, a top 3 or 4 that you know of that are countries like Palestine that he's visited.