avfc1982am Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I'm hoping we won't see any cities smashed to pieces. I think it could be quite an effective tactic for the Russians in Ukraine - destroy a major city and kill a couple of hundred thousand people and the levels of resistance would drop, but I don't think the Russians want to do that. I think they were hoping for something much more processional than they've got, but that they've not really got the desire to escalate it to the point where there are large numbers of civilian casualties. I still think they see it as them liberating their Ukrainian brothers - and thankfully for the most part, that's keeping them from concentrating what they're doing on the civilian population. I think that narrative has completely been blown out the water. I highly doubt anyone, even Russians in Ukraine will ever forgive this. It will take several generations to get over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 1 hour ago, romavillan said: I think Putin has made a big mistake this time, clearly emboldened by the success he's been having since 2014. Crimea, Brexit, Trump etc. all went his way through his shenanigans but now that the UK is out of the EU it seems the EU can quickly, much more quickly than when they had to deal with the Conservative party, come to a consensus. Germany has just dropped €100bn on defence (it's annual budget was €53bn), the EU is united and this threat will cause greater integration and a more powerful bloc. The international response (in particular China's abstention and not supporting vote in the UN) has completely isolated Russia and the economic fallout is already causing problems for the people on the street in Russia. There are protests all over the country against the war too. This isn't how Putin wanted things to play out at all. I think it might end up being the end of Putin's regime and see Russia lose the Crimea, it could well have the complete opposite effect to what he wanted and see more states join NATO. As an aside, the UK has been exposed as a compromised state, it's embarrassing. Instead of being involved in the serious negotiations at the top table, the EU and the US decide what's going to happen and they tell the UK. Lord Lebedev is a total disgrace, the amount of Russian influence is terrifying. Whilst Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson was saying sanctions would take months to sort out the EU turned around the most devastating set of sanctions in like 48 hours. Banks, Farage et al's true colours have come out as well, even Putin's Italian cheerleader in Italy, Salvini, has been trying to distance himself from Russia but the Vote Leave crew have all been essentially saying it's the EU and NATOs fault. words removed. I don’t think this is a particularly good reflection of reality. The UK has been one of the leading countries pushing for the expulsion of Russia from SWIFT (initially resisted by the EU due to Germany, Italy, Hungary and Cyprus) and we were supporting Ukraine with numerous anti-tank weapons well before it became cool, which has proved extremely relevant. Germany actually blocked other countries like Estonia from sending Ukraine weapons. Similarly it seems really weird to praise Germany for upping their military budget to 2% of GDP while we’ve been at 2% for a while. The UK does have a lot of problems with laundering Russian money but you definitely seem to be trying to fit events to your pre-existing narrative here. Brexit and Boris can still be a bad thing without having to talk down the contribution the UK has made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 9 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I'm hoping we won't see any cities smashed to pieces. I think it could be quite an effective tactic for the Russians in Ukraine - destroy a major city and kill a couple of hundred thousand people and the levels of resistance would drop, but I don't think the Russians want to do that. I think they were hoping for something much more processional than they've got, but that they've not really got the desire to escalate it to the point where there are large numbers of civilian casualties. I still think they see it as them liberating their Ukrainian brothers - and thankfully for the most part, that's keeping them from concentrating what they're doing on the civilian population. I certainly hope we don’t see it either, but honestly the only way I think we’ll avoid it is if what we’re seeing now is just some warnings to Zelensky while ceasefire negotiations are ongoing. If Russia is willing to accept token concessions in order to get out of a war where they’re in over their heads (I.e. Ukraine pledges not to join NATO for 20 years or whatever) then we might see a peaceful end to the war. I’m not sure Putin would be willing to offer that though, so I think the war will continue. And I think if there’s no chance of peace (and the West having nowhere else to go with financial sanctions) the Russians will start to act much more ruthlessly. I really hope I’m wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 40 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said: Hopefully the likes of Valve, Microsoft and PS follow suit. Taking away all the entertainment will mobilise their young (as well as old!) against Putin. Can you imagine living in a society where the money in your pocket is pretty much worthless, you can't even use your bank card and even if you did have money, you can't spend it on the things you usually do. Oh, and your army is butchering a load of innocent people next door for absolutely no reason. The scariest thing for me is, Putin probably would have known about these sanctions and he STILL went ahead with the invasion. It's beyond comprehension really. Yes but in retaliation Russia could ban the export of tetris. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 1 hour ago, sidcow said: So Chamberlain, no sorry, Macron has apparently received assurances from Putin that he will protect Civilians and not destroy Civilian Air infrastructure or Roads. So we can all now breath a sigh of relief on the worry about indescriminate bombing. Thanks Manny, good to know you're still on the case. Sounds like macs trying to show he is doing more than he actually is. Surely he isnt that big a fool to believe him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted February 28, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2022 4 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said: I don’t think this is a particularly good reflection of reality. The UK has been one of the leading countries pushing for the expulsion of Russia from SWIFT (initially resisted by the EU due to Germany, Italy, Hungary and Cyprus) and we were supporting Ukraine with numerous anti-tank weapons well before it became cool, which has proved extremely relevant. Germany actually blocked other countries like Estonia from sending Ukraine weapons. Similarly it seems really weird to praise Germany for upping their military budget to 2% of GDP while we’ve been at 2% for a while. The UK does have a lot of problems with laundering Russian money but you definitely seem to be trying to fit events to your pre-existing narrative here. Brexit and Boris can still be a bad thing without having to talk down the contribution the UK has made. If you think the Russian influence in the UK is limited to laundering money then you've probably got some surprises coming. I was talking about the rapidity and coherence of the EU response without the UK being surprising and that could be related to not having to appease the Conservative ruling party in the UK. The €100bn is spending is on top of €53bn. The EU wanted to prioritise non military aid at first and gave enormous financial aid almost immediately for the Ukranian government to use as it needed. As for pre-existing narrative, Lord Lebedev exists, he is the son of a KGB man. Johnson instead of publishing the russia report went to Italy to a party with Lebedev then made him a lord. That's not narrative those are facts. The UK government is still doing very little to seize assets, or to expel Russian oligarchs from the country and seem to be bending over backwards to give them time to get their money out of the country. In contrast the EU's response has been impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 Wow, even Switzerland have picked a side. Thats when you really know you’re in the wrong 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 28, 2022 57 minutes ago, sidcow said: Apparently Russians are unable to renew Netflix and Spotify because their cards are being rejected. This will be Putins downfall. On The Last Leg, Alex Brooker said "It seems like Putin spent the whole of lockdown getting really angry about Ukraine. Why couldn't he just get into Tiger King like the rest of us?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 28, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 28, 2022 1 hour ago, sidcow said: Apparently Russians are unable to renew Netflix. Ah crap, they'll be buying up even more of our property! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 (edited) Quote In a 2018 documentary, President Putin commented that "…if someone decides to annihilate Russia, we have the legal right to respond. Yes, it will be a catastrophe for humanity and for the world. But I'm a citizen of Russia and its head of state. Why do we need a world without Russia in it?" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60551140 Edited February 28, 2022 by BleedClaretAndBlue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 11 minutes ago, romavillan said: If you think the Russian influence in the UK is limited to laundering money then you've probably got some surprises coming. I was talking about the rapidity and coherence of the EU response without the UK being surprising and that could be related to not having to appease the Conservative ruling party in the UK. The €100bn is spending is on top of €53bn. The EU wanted to prioritise non military aid at first and gave enormous financial aid almost immediately for the Ukranian government to use as it needed. As for pre-existing narrative, Lord Lebedev exists, he is the son of a KGB man. Johnson instead of publishing the russia report went to Italy to a party with Lebedev then made him a lord. That's not narrative those are facts. The UK government is still doing very little to seize assets, or to expel Russian oligarchs from the country and seem to be bending over backwards to give them time to get their money out of the country. In contrast the EU's response has been impressive. I don’t understand why you think the EU response was rapid or cohesive due to the UK not being present if the UK got to the same place (significant economic sanctions, arming Ukraine) faster, though? Why would we be slowing down them getting to our position? The UK is usually pretty accommodating to Russian money and influence but the position seems to have shifted since an invasion of Ukraine became a realistic possibility. Germany has done the same thing, but it took them a few weeks longer to get there. It’s odd you recognise it in one country but not the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted February 28, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2022 3 hours ago, PieFacE said: Yeah FIFA's response was pathetic Another football body should start and pull power away from them, it's not overdue and this weak response towards Russia could be the tipping point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, tinker said: Another football body should start and pull power away from them, it's not overdue and this weak response towards Russia could be the tipping point. Rumor is that they have changed their minds and are going to ban them after a meeting this afternoon with UEFA and the IOC. Better late than never and all it took was every other sporting body (apart from cross country skiing) and organization in the world banning them first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 50 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I think that narrative has completely been blown out the water. I highly doubt anyone, even Russians in Ukraine will ever forgive this. It will take several generations to get over. This is Putin’s fundamental problem, he needed a swift, relatively bloodless military takeover for his political objective (reintegration of Ukraine into Russia) to be possible. Destroying half the country and killing many thousands of Ukrainians creates a bitter and irreconcilable enemy who would need to be heavily garrisoned and harshly treated to permanently subjugate them - good luck… Politically he’s already lost, it’s now just a question of his day to day survival and that requires rivers of Ukrainian blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 And there it is Quote FIFA/UEFA suspend Russian clubs and national teams from all competitionsAll Russian clubs and national teams are suspended from participation in both FIFA and UEFA competitions until further notice. Following the initial decisions adopted by the FIFA Council and the UEFA Executive Committee, which envisaged the adoption of additional measures, FIFA and UEFA have today decided together that all Russian teams, whether national representative teams or club teams, shall be suspended from participation in both FIFA and UEFA competitions until further notice. These decisions were adopted today by the Bureau of the FIFA Council and the Executive Committee of UEFA, respectively the highest decision-making bodies of both institutions on such urgent matters. Football is fully united here and in full solidarity with all the people affected in Ukraine. Both Presidents hope that the situation in Ukraine will improve significantly and rapidly so that football can again be a vector for unity and peace amongst people. https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/news/0272-148df1faf082-6e50b5ea1f84-1000--fifa-uefa-suspend-russian-clubs-and-national-teams-from-all-com/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, Awol said: This is Putin’s fundamental problem, he needed a swift, relatively bloodless military takeover for his political objective (reintegration of Ukraine into Russia) to be possible. Destroying half the country and killing many thousands of Ukrainians creates a bitter and irreconcilable enemy who would need to be heavily garrisoned and harshly treated to permanently subjugate them - good luck… Politically he’s already lost, it’s now just a question of his day to day survival and that requires rivers of Ukrainian blood. I think Putin is in this until the Country is split from the Dneiper River to occupy the east. I don't think he gives a shit about upsetting anyone and will try to create another state. The world needs to strangle the Russian economy and do whatever to push them back and not allow them to slice the Ukraine in half. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 52 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: Yes but in retaliation Russia could ban the export of tetris. and Smirnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 28, 2022 Share Posted February 28, 2022 37 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60551140 Tbh, this is pretty much what you'd expect him, or any major nuclear power to say. There is absolutely no point having a nuclear deterrent if people think they can attack you without you using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted February 28, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2022 whoopsie, if true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 28, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 28, 2022 Just now, PieFacE said: whoopsie, if true... Still less of a threat to Jewish people than Corbyn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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