17/18 Promotion Charge

[Demitri_C]

Quote

 

Cardiff boss Neil Warnock forced to accept fine over Reading red card

By Andy Charles

Last Updated: 15/12/17 11:35am

 

 

Neil Warnock was dismissed at the Madejski

Cardiff boss Neil Warnock says he feels "betrayed" but has no choice but to plead guilty to a Football Association charge of misconduct which will see him fined £2,000.

Warnock was sent off 12 minutes from the end of City's 2-2 draw at Reading on Monday after a touchline exchange with fourth official Andy Woolmer.

The 69-year-old said he had spoken with his governing body, the League Managers' Association (LMA), about the charge which he felt was a "travesty" but came out of that chat knowing he would not be able to fight the charge.

"The LMA say I've got no option but to plead guilty and get fined £2,000," Warnock said in his pre-match press conference ahead of a top-of-the-table clash with Wolves on Saturday.

"I'm disappointed but I've got to accept what the League Managers say, although I would have preferred a personal hearing.

"I feel betrayed because I said these things to the fourth official, Andy Woolmer, who I've known many years and been one of his biggest fans about his refereeing.

"I said things to him during the game and he must have written all these things down from the first minute. I find that very unusual for a fourth official to write notes down like this.

"It's those comments that I've made to him personally that has been used against me.

"I don't think they were offensive with the way I talk to him (Woolmer). I didn't say it to Sky, to the radio or the media - I said it to someone who is not a young referee and been supportive of for many years."

Warnock has asked the LMA about referee scheduling, after the Reading match was officiated by Steve Martin - he had been fourth official for their previous game against Norwich City.

Warnock questioned why Steve Martin had been involved in Cardiff's last two matches

The Welsh club have also sent the LMA a video of several incidents which Warnock felt went against Cardiff at the Madejski.

"I don't think that's an advantage to us at all and I've written to the LMA asking can we ask that this doesn't happen," Warnock said.

"I don't think we should have someone fourth official one week alongside us and then he's refereeing us the next week.

"I think that's totally out of order in the modern game where we are supposed to be professional."

 

Already feeling the heat old warnock. This can only be  a good thing later on in the season

[briny_ear]

43 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Already feeling the heat old warnock. This can only be  a good thing later on in the season

Quote

"I don't think we should have someone fourth official one week alongside us and then he's refereeing us the next week.

"I think that's totally out of order in the modern game where we are supposed to be professional."

Not sure how that’s not “professional” TBH. A proper professional ref should be able to be 4th official one week and referee a match involving the same club the next and be properly professional and impartial in both.

Warnock’s brain showing signs of scrambling.

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

I mean, one fairly obvious difference is that a manager replacing Bruce now would be inheriting a team on the edge of the playoffs, while Bruce inherited a team on the edge of the relegation zone. 

So I don't think it's really plausible to argue that the club is the same degree of 'mess' as when he took over. 

Maybe you didn't read the original post. or even all of mine.  The premise is that Bruce is utilizing a style of play that is NOT what we want in order to progress past the whole promotion hurdle.  If you read back before that, the defense of Bruce is that Wyness said we need three teams.  one to get out of the championship, one to become stable in the Premiership, and one to push on beyond that.   The style of play and the team Bruce is building is the first (this is just one of dozens of defenses provided on SB's behalf) so it doesn't have to be pretty or even especially good, or able to retain possession, etc.  It just has to get promoted.  

I do think it was a valid point that a team built on that foundation will need a MAJOR overhaul which we are frequently told takes lots of time.  So, the new guy should have a very difficult start.  And it is just as valid to blame SB for that, as it is to say he has not been able to produce a better product in 14 months or so because of the shape it was in when he started.   

Surely you don't think this roster on this strategy could do well in the Premier League.  So it will clearly take the next guy at least 12 months of poor results to get anything significantly better.....  if you are being consistent that is.

[rodders0223]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

Already feeling the heat old warnock. This can only be  a good thing later on in the season

Warnock has been around the block,  he knows exactly what he is doing.

His tantrums, moaning, ranting and raving on the touchline are all a performance. Far from the maniac on the touchlines he likes to pretend to be, I think he is a very shrewd and calculating man.

 

[Demitri_C]

6 minutes ago, rodders0223 said:

Warnock has been around the block,  he knows exactly what he is doing.

His tantrums, moaning, ranting and raving on the touchline are all a performance. Far from the maniac on the touchlines he likes to pretend to be, I think he is a very shrewd and calculating man.

 

Most definitely mate, but they looked panic ridden when it didnt go their way. I think if they hit poor form they will drop off. Big IF but at reading they did come back to their credit but they looked absolutely dreadful first half. I think they may crumble later on a season goes on. I think Derby will be challenging top 2 for sure

 

 

[HanoiVillan]

23 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Maybe you didn't read the original post. or even all of mine.  The premise is that Bruce is utilizing a style of play that is NOT what we want in order to progress past the whole promotion hurdle.  If you read back before that, the defense of Bruce is that Wyness said we need three teams.  one to get out of the championship, one to become stable in the Premiership, and one to push on beyond that.   The style of play and the team Bruce is building is the first (this is just one of dozens of defenses provided on SB's behalf) so it doesn't have to be pretty or even especially good, or able to retain possession, etc.  It just has to get promoted.  

I do think it was a valid point that a team built on that foundation will need a MAJOR overhaul which we are frequently told takes lots of time.  So, the new guy should have a very difficult start.  And it is just as valid to blame SB for that, as it is to say he has not been able to produce a better product in 14 months or so because of the shape it was in when he started.   

Surely you don't think this roster on this strategy could do well in the Premier League.  So it will clearly take the next guy at least 12 months of poor results to get anything significantly better.....  if you are being consistent that is.

I just don't agree with almost all of that, but I'm pushed for time so I'm not going to go line by line. The flaw in your arguments is that 'he has not been able to produce a better product in 14 months or so because of the shape it was in when he started' - he very clearly has, hence why I point out the respective league positions. 

It isn't the same thing taking over a team with lower-Prem level players like Snodgrass, Terry, Taylor, Whelan etc sat on the edge of the playoffs (which is the scenario wanted by the people who wish to sack the manager now) than it is taking over a team on the edge of relegation with a Westwood-Gardner spine. 

[Demitri_C]

31 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

 

Surely you don't think this roster on this strategy could do well in the Premier League.  So it will clearly take the next guy at least 12 months of poor results to get anything significantly better.....  if you are being consistent that is.

Few points here

•  lets get there first
• do you think we will have anywhere near this team in premier league?

if we go up i suspect investment will be spent to make us a premier league side. all that hard work to get us there i can't see XIa just having us standing still to get relegated. he has plans big plans that will make him a lot of money and better the club.

also he doesn't have to worry about FFP in Premier League 

 

[briny_ear]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Maybe you didn't read the original post. or even all of mine.  The premise is that Bruce is utilizing a style of play that is NOT what we want in order to progress past the whole promotion hurdle.  If you read back before that, the defense of Bruce is that Wyness said we need three teams.  one to get out of the championship, one to become stable in the Premiership, and one to push on beyond that.   The style of play and the team Bruce is building is the first (this is just one of dozens of defenses provided on SB's behalf) so it doesn't have to be pretty or even especially good, or able to retain possession, etc.  It just has to get promoted.  

I do think it was a valid point that a team built on that foundation will need a MAJOR overhaul which we are frequently told takes lots of time.  So, the new guy should have a very difficult start.  And it is just as valid to blame SB for that, as it is to say he has not been able to produce a better product in 14 months or so because of the shape it was in when he started.   

Surely you don't think this roster on this strategy could do well in the Premier League.  So it will clearly take the next guy at least 12 months of poor results to get anything significantly better.....  if you are being consistent that is.

Looking at the two bits of your argument I have highlighted, I guess the person to "blame" - if you really want someone to blame (why are so many people on here hunting for someone to blame?) - would be Wyness then, since it is his strategy and Bruce, by getting us promoted, would have fulfilled his part of the process.

You seem to be arguing that Bruce is at fault because he is not (in your opinion) producing a side that both (a) has a prospect of getting us promoted and (b ) will be able to flourish in the premier league immediately once we have gone up. Recent history shows that is an incredibly hard thing to do. It is very rare if non-existent that a squad that wins promotion can do well in the premier league without major enhancement. Of recent promotees, I guess Watford have settled into premier league life most comfortably but look at the massive turnovers in their squad (and managers!) over the past three seasons.

So if the criticism of Bruce is about not producing a premier league-ready squad, I don't think that is what the club expect of him and I don't think fans should either. The only question is: can he get us out of this league? If he does that, it's up to the board to put in place the strategy for team no. 2 - premier league consolidation (and in my opinion that won't involve Bruce - at least not for very long if we struggle in the top flight).

[Grasshopper]

Nuno just said

„Enjoy - play football - and win“

Top o‘t leeeeeague

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, Grasshopper said:

Nuno just said

„Enjoy - play football - and win“

Top o‘t leeeeeague

Well! I had NO IDEA football was that easy!

So if every manager said that to their teams they would all be top of the league!

[AvfcRigo82]

4 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Few points here

•  lets get there first
• do you think we will have anywhere near this team in premier league?

if we go up i suspect investment will be spent to make us a premier league side. all that hard work to get us there i can't see XIa just having us standing still to get relegated. he has plans big plans that will make him a lot of money and better the club.

also he doesn't have to worry about FFP in Premier League 

 

True enough Demi that he don't, but I hope we have a better manager in place to take us onto this next level   

[LakotaDakota]

Apparently Sheffield Wednesday have only beaten Wolves at home once in their previous 18 attempts, Not the most encouraging of stats going into tonight but hopefully they can do to wolves what they did to us

Edited December 15, 2017 by LakotaDakota

[Vive_La_Villa]

42 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Well! I had NO IDEA football was that easy!

So if every manager said that to their teams they would all be top of the league!

Well we all knows it's not that simple but sometimes the way a manager speaks tell you about thier philosophy. Now I'm not saying it's right or wrong but Nuno has talked about playing a certain way since day 1. Bruce on the other hand has never really spoke about how to play and more just about playing well and getting results. 

They are just two very different managers. 

[dn1982]

5 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Most definitely mate, but they looked panic ridden when it didnt go their way. I think if they hit poor form they will drop off. Big IF but at reading they did come back to their credit but they looked absolutely dreadful first half. I think they may crumble later on a season goes on. I think Derby will be challenging top 2 for sure

 

 

Did you see how bad we were at Reading? Cardiff are an up and at them team it’s hard to play high tempo every game but to come back says a lot about them. They’ve got an easy run over Xmas if they get through it well I can’t s see us catching them. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Starting to hate Wolves.

lol

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Starting to hate Wolves.

lol

It's not really a fair competition you have a agent bringing top players who should be playing premier league or even in European leagues. What chance does everyone else have? I think even the Brighton and Newcastle teams last season would struggle against this wolves team.

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Well we all knows it's not that simple but sometimes the way a manager speaks tell you about thier philosophy. Now I'm not saying it's right or wrong but Nuno has talked about playing a certain way since day 1. Bruce on the other hand has never really spoke about how to play and more just about playing well and getting results. 

They are just two very different managers. 

I don't really think any of us know really how either Bruce or "Saint Nuno" actually talk to their players. A lot of this is pure speculation. No-one can deny that Nuno has done well with all the clubs he's managed. Good luck to him. But he is not really any more than a subject of remote interest to us. Our manager is called Steve Bruce and he has a pretty good track record as well and he has got us into contention for promotion - something you could never really divine from reading many of the posts on Villatalk these days.

Don't really care what Wolves are doing - do care very much about how Villa are doing and it's not so bad so far this season, is it?

Can't see why we spend so much time obsessing about another club's manager.

Edited December 15, 2017 by briny_ear

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I don't really think any of us know really how either Bruce or "Saint Nuno" actually talk to their players. A lot of this is pure speculation. No-one can deny that Nuno has done well with all the clubs he's managed. Good luck to him. But he is not really any more than a subject of remote interest to us. Our manager is called Steve Bruce and he has a pretty good track record as well and he has got us into contention for promotion - something you could never really divine from reading many of the posts on Villatalk these days.

Don't really care what Wolves are doing - do care very much about how Villa are doing and it's not so bad so far this season, is it?

Can't see why we spend so much time obsessing about another club's manager.

I think it's just general chat about a rivals manaher rather than obessing about him. Obviously we'd love to be where Wolves are. As for whether we aren't doing too badly this season that would depend on who you ask. Some expect a lot better. 

I personally am very content on our league position but am concerned that our performances and lack of quality up front with Kodija out long term is starting to affect us. If we don't get our signings right in January this season I don't think we will get promoted. 

That is a worry. 

[srsmithusa]

5 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Looking at the two bits of your argument I have highlighted, I guess the person to "blame" - if you really want someone to blame (why are so many people on here hunting for someone to blame?) - would be Wyness then, since it is his strategy and Bruce, by getting us promoted, would have fulfilled his part of the process.

You seem to be arguing that Bruce is at fault because he is not (in your opinion) producing a side that both (a) has a prospect of getting us promoted and (b ) will be able to flourish in the premier league immediately once we have gone up. Recent history shows that is an incredibly hard thing to do. It is very rare if non-existent that a squad that wins promotion can do well in the premier league without major enhancement. Of recent promotees, I guess Watford have settled into premier league life most comfortably but look at the massive turnovers in their squad (and managers!) over the past three seasons.

So if the criticism of Bruce is about not producing a premier league-ready squad, I don't think that is what the club expect of him and I don't think fans should either. The only question is: can he get us out of this league? If he does that, it's up to the board to put in place the strategy for team no. 2 - premier league consolidation (and in my opinion that won't involve Bruce - at least not for very long if we struggle in the top flight).

To be fair.  Let’s start with what wyness  meant rather than what Bruce supporters have asserted.  

I think (and hope) he wanted promotion with a team that could possess and score.  That team could then add a bit higher level talent and more intelligent tactics and ability to adjust and be stable in the Premier League.   What they are getting is a team that doesn’t move, can’t retain possession, and MIGHT scrape together a promotion to a league in which it can’t compete without a complete overhaul of talent, mentality, coaching, tactics, and style of play  

Bruce defenders were saying that his job was not to build a good team that could play attractive football, his charge, according to the three team plan was to build a team that could get promoted.   So we shouldn’t worry that we can’t play the sport well, just be happy with the points.  (As your post echo’s)

Personally, I think the three team strategy is foolish, if understood as the latter.  It’s hard enough to change a team that was as bad as villa was, without trying to successfully overhaul it three times.   I think it’s foolish and shortsighted to support a plan that builds a team that plays ugly, poor football that MIGHT get enough points to gain promotion.  Foolish of the board to plan it (if they did) and foolish of Bruce to go along with it (if he has).  I don’t think the board is that foolish.  I think the acceptance of crap football IS that foolish. 

(Side note) My grandfather was a sure fire Kentucky hillbilly.  He said “if you want to cut the tail off a dog, it’s best not to try cutting it off one-third at a time. “ With the appropriate hillbilly drawl of course.   That dog is not going to cooperate   

The longer we play crap football the harder it will be for the next guy to change us into something different  

For a long time I thought Bruce was just taking too long to assemble a team and a style of play that could play attractive winning football.  If the latter understanding of the three team plan is right, he’s not even trying.  I’m not encouraged by that.  

That said, I do appreciate your careful thought about my post.  

[Demitri_C]

Wolves too far in front we need to forget about them now. Too many teams not taking the game to them enough including us.