What's wrong at Villa?

[villa89]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

He started off remarkably well here.

He didn't though. He got very lucky to remain unbeaten for so long given the poor performances we were putting in. Brighton away being the only good performance I can remember off hand. IIRC most people on here we obviously delighted that we were picking up points and not losing but there were concerns from the start that the performance level wasn't good enough. Alot of that was blamed on the GardWood central midfield but Bruce has been able to get rid of them and buy in his own players but even then the performances have got worse if anything.

That's what's so concerning. If there was some pick up in performances given the great transfers in the January window then I wouldn't be so concerned because we aren't going to make the playoffs anyway but time is running out for him to show us that he is the right man to get us into the top 6 next season. He has the squad to do it no doubt about that but he has to show us that he's the manager to do it. The scattergun approach, the presumably estranged lovechild in goals and the abject performances are frightening.

Edited February 15, 2017 by villa89

[Villan_of_oz]

10 hours ago, DJ_Villain said:

Why? Because Sherwood gave us top 6 finishes, brought players in to make them play as a team and got them into the England squad?
No, he didn't... He fluked getting us to an FA cup final (which we took a hiding in) then got found out...

At least we had something to cheer about under MON

MoN is part of the reason we are where we are. Some of the highest most ridiculous wages were paid under MoN's reign. 

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, villa89 said:

He didn't though. He got very lucky to remain unbeaten for so long given the poor performances we were putting in. Brighton away being the only good performance I can remember off hand. IIRC most people on here we obviously delighted that we were picking up points and not losing but there were concerns from the start that the performance level wasn't good enough. Alot of that was blamed on the GardWood central midfield but Bruce has been able to get rid of them and buy in his own players but even then the performances have got worse if anything.

That's what's so concerning. If there was some pick up in performances given the great transfers in the January window then I wouldn't be so concerned because we aren't going to make the playoffs anyway but time is running out for him to show us that he is the right man to get us into the top 6 next season. He has the squad to do it no doubt about that but he has to show us that he's the manager to do it. The scattergun approach, the presumably estranged lovechild in goals and the abject performances are frightening.

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

I'm just wondering why it hasn't worked when it should have.

I'm just not convinced changing the manager will change anything.

 

That's not saying we SHOULDN'T change the manager. I'm just saying I'm not optimistic that we'll suddenly be really good.

[skarroki]

I think the current problem lies in the last 2 transfer windows. We did it with RDM and then repeated the exact thing again with Bruce.

We are signing everyone's best player, who looks good and performs well in the league. But they are all individually the heartbeat of the team, the focal point, everything goes through or to them.

Buying the best defenders causes few issues because they just need to learn to play in a back 4 with the new players. But every midfielder and striker we get suddenly has to learn how to be part of a team where everyone else on the pitch is equally talented. I would say our current focal point is Kodjia, or was before ACON, hence why he looked shoulders above everyone else. 

I think we need a 4-2-3-1 formation now where everyone has defined roles. You need the brains, brawn and heartbeat of the midfield to be carried by different players. Lansbury can certainly be the brawn from what I've seen and Hourihane can be the brain, have Grealish in the AM role as the heartbeat and make sure everyone knows there job in the team. Don't play to Hogan, play a midfield game and let him be an outlet and a finisher.

Most importantly, after games like these, Hourihane and others need to be assured they will be playing the next few games. We can't keep changing things up. Guarantee a starting XI for 5 games and if they're still not improving then at least Bruce can say they all got a fair chance to show they should be a starter, but it's someone elses turn to show they're good enough now.

Edited February 15, 2017 by skarroki

[wilko154]

31 minutes ago, Villan_of_oz said:

MoN is part of the reason we are where we are. Some of the highest most ridiculous wages were paid under MoN's reign. 

MON was given a transfer budget & wage budget and spent it. The owner allowed him to do that, at the end of the day he's a football manager not a business accountant.

Under MON we were a striker away from Champions League football, had that happened the whole Aston Villa story could now be completely different.

Unfortunately we didn't make the Champions League and the poor running of the club from the top became evident starting the rot that is still ongoing.

[turvontour]

49 minutes ago, villa89 said:

I don't think that. I think if we appointed a good manager the ship that is Aston Villa would turnaround awful fast. I don't know who that manager is but if we got someone to do what Wagner has done at Huddersfield or Dyche has done at Burnley with the transfer budget we have then we'll easily be promoted out of this division.  

I don’t think it’s wholly the manager, I think the manager becomes the problem on the surface of it after a few months of their appointment. Just two-three months ago, Bruce was seen by many as the saviour. He can’t have suddenly turned into a bad manager overnight, his record elsewhere is simply too strong for that to be the case. Based on what Dyche and Wagner have done at smaller clubs with no money, then yes presumably with their appointment we’d be back up and in the top half of the Premier league within 18 months. However, I feel that if Wagner had come in October, or Mclaren or Moyes, and we were where we are now, you’d simply have Dyche and Bruce on that list of replacements instead.

 

Also, we shouldn’t even need a top manager that’s performed miracles to get a decent 90 mins out of this squad, the players are also hugely responsible for their collective actions.

[Villan_of_oz]

3 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

MON was given a transfer budget & wage budget and spent it. The owner allowed him to do that, at the end of the day he's a football manager not a business accountant.

Under MON we were a striker away from Champions League football, had that happened the whole Aston Villa story could now be completely different.

Unfortunately we didn't make the Champions League and the poor running of the club from the top became evident starting the rot that is still ongoing.

But MoN did pick the players that got those wages and after he left we had to go through a period of austerity. He was irresponsible and when Lerner told him no more cash he spat out the dummy and  walked. MoN is a bellend.

[Mantis]

O'Neill was never a bad manager but I think people forget just how much we were spending relative to the rest of the league at the time. Obviously not all managers can get results even after spending lots of money (see Bruce) but as I said, he's not the genius some make out. I think those early years under Lerner were a massive wasted opportunity. We could've done so much more.

52 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

I'm just wondering why it hasn't worked when it should have.

I'm just not convinced changing the manager will change anything.

 

That's not saying we SHOULDN'T change the manager. I'm just saying I'm not optimistic that we'll suddenly be really good.

This is exactly where I am right now. Bruce should go, but I doubt it'll make much difference after a few months.

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, pacbuddies said:

It's simple, 2 successive owners that know sod all about football (except that you have to spend a shit load of money) making dumb ass managerial appointments and expecting it to be alright. Whilst Tony Xia may be a nice bloke with a pile of cash he really does need to get savvy about managers quickly otherwise he will end up being Lerner MK2.

I fail to see how appointing Steve Bruce was as bad as some of Lerner's managerial appointments.

Even RDM got WBA out of this league but in hindsight that wasn't the right move.

[PaulC]

2 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

I fail to see how appointing Steve Bruce was as bad as some of Lerner's managerial appointments.

Even RDM got WBA out of this league but in hindsight that wasn't the right move.

Lambert was a decent appointment imo, Sherwood did what he was asked to do, keeping us up and the bonus of acup final but not a long-term manager,. So probably Garde and MCleish were the only poor ones.

[VillaChris]

I think the missed opportunity was after MON went.

We'd finished 6th three times, still had likes of Downing and Young in the squad and would spend 20m on Bent later that year. We were far from a basketcase club at that period in time and could easily have stayed a top half team with some good signings.

You see clubs in the bottom half of the prem pick up managers like Billic and Pochettino.

I will never understand why we limited our search to managers with premier league experience which ended up with a shortlist of a semi retired Houllier, Curbishley and some other non-entity.

Where was the vision then? If the timing was difficult we really should've just given McDonald the job until someone better became available.

I reckon that started the downward trend and then appointing McLeish compounded things.

[KHV]

We are paying premier league wages for middle of the road mediocre second tier footballer's.  

That's the problem. We pay over the odds in the first place then pay weekly wages way over the odds. 

These players play out of their skins for so called lesser teams to try and earn big money moves.

Along come Aston Villa with Tony Twitter chucking money about like a kid in a sweet shop with no real plan thinking you can buy your way out of this league with delusions of grandeur of being in the champions league within a few years.

The new players arrive with bulging bank balances with an "I've made it to the big time attitude" and then flatter to deceive as they are now half arsed and see Aston Villa as a cash cow they can milk rather than performing like they did when they were earning a quarter of what they earn now.

Bunch of big time charlies with no fight or passion.

Roy Keane called the players out when he was here, he was right. Sadly we have a buck of players again with the same attitude. 

If the players were paid on performance related pay our wage bill would be zero.

That's the problem.

I'm starting to think we would have been better of without Xia and the new regime and still had Hollis in charge. Even though the money was tight we would probably have seen some shrewd signings instead of pissing a shed load of dough to be in a relegation battle.

£12m and £40000 per week on a striker who couldnt be **** arsed to turn up tells you everything you need to know about Aston Villa.

The biggest joke outfit in English football is what we are.

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, PaulC said:

Lambert was a decent appointment imo, Sherwood did what he was asked to do, keeping us up and the bonus of acup final but not a long-term manager,. So probably Garde and MCleish were the only poor ones.

Did we ask Sherwood to relegate us?

[TRO]

7 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

I'm just wondering why it hasn't worked when it should have.

I'm just not convinced changing the manager will change anything.

 

That's not saying we SHOULDN'T change the manager. I'm just saying I'm not optimistic that we'll suddenly be really good.

The balance of the team is still not right despite the purchases.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, KHV said:

We are paying premier league wages for middle of the road mediocre second tier footballer's.  

That's the problem. We pay over the odds in the first place then pay weekly wages way over the odds. 

These players play out of their skins for so called lesser teams to try and earn big money moves.

Along come Aston Villa with Tony Twitter chucking money about like a kid in a sweet shop with no real plan thinking you can buy your way out of this league with delusions of grandeur of being in the champions league within a few years.

The new players arrive with bulging bank balances with an "I've made it to the big time attitude" and then flatter to deceive as they are now half arsed and see Aston Villa as a cash cow they can milk rather than performing like they did when they were earning a quarter of what they earn now.

Bunch of big time charlies with no fight or passion.

Roy Keane called the players out when he was here, he was right. Sadly we have a buck of players again with the same attitude. 

If the players were paid on performance related pay our wage bill would be zero.

That's the problem.

I'm starting to think we would have been better of without Xia and the new regime and still had Hollis in charge. Even though the money was tight we would probably have seen some shrewd signings instead of pissing a shed load of dough to be in a relegation battle.

£12m and £40000 per week on a striker who couldnt be **** arsed to turn up tells you everything you need to know about Aston Villa.

The biggest joke outfit in English football is what we are.

could not have divulged my feelings better than what you have written.

Sadly, I think you are very close to the truth.

I don't see a way out of this in the short term.

Edited February 15, 2017 by TRO

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

For two years I was broken record about Albrighton but I don't think I was wrong. We needed his crossing and energy despite him being limited.

And I don't want to be a broken record again (despite me being one on a defensive midfielders for 6 years too) but, these are our results with Jedinak in the team.
Couldn't get them all one screen but add 5 draws and 2 losses to that table when he did play.

We have to blood in a young defensive midfielder who plays defensive midfield rather than attack or we buy an understudy for an ageing and injury prone Jedinak.
It's one thing struggling to score but it's quite another to be loose in the middle of the park.

Edited February 15, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[kurtsimonw]

Selling a player like Ayew is one thing that's wrong. Very good on and off the ball at this level. He's part of the reason our left backs weren't so isolated, now without him in the side and no real wide left player we're getting hammered down that side and Amavi is being shown up for what he is.

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

4 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

For two years I was broken record about Albrighton but I don't think I was wrong. We needed his crossing and energy despite him being limited.

And I don't want to be a broken record again (despite me being one on a defensive midfielders for 6 years too) but, these are our results with Jedinak in the team.
Couldn't get them all one screen but add 5 draws and 2 losses to that table when he did play.

 

We have to blood in a young defensive midfielder who plays defensive midfield rather than attack or we buy an understudy for an ageing and injury prone Jedinak.
It's one thing struggling to score but it's quite another to be loose in the middle of the park.

Worth noting that the winners against Fulham and Burton and equalizer against Leeds all occurred when he was taken off. He isn't the messiah but he does help out defensively. He has been a terrible signing given the wages he is on.

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

12 hours ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

Worth noting that the winners against Fulham and Burton and equalizer against Leeds all occurred when he was taken off. He isn't the messiah but he does help out defensively. He has been a terrible signing given the wages he is on.

Great management? ha.
it's v hard to argue with the bit in bold. There are some close to world class defensive midfielders on less. 

Then again, give me a Villa player who has been worth his wages? This broken culture of high wages can be plastered over if we went straight back up but I feel next season will be messy with some guys leaving and others feeling frustrated that they're on lower salaries...though you never know, it might spur them to play well to get a Prem Villa salary.....we need some motivation at the club because 3 points doesn't seem an incentive for some players.

Edited February 16, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[lexicon]

17 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

For two years I was broken record about Albrighton but I don't think I was wrong. We needed his crossing and energy despite him being limited.

And I don't want to be a broken record again (despite me being one on a defensive midfielders for 6 years too) but, these are our results with Jedinak in the team.
Couldn't get them all one screen but add 5 draws and 2 losses to that table when he did play.

We have to blood in a young defensive midfielder who plays defensive midfield rather than attack or we buy an understudy for an ageing and injury prone Jedinak.
It's one thing struggling to score but it's quite another to be loose in the middle of the park.

How does it correlate with Johnstone being our GK too?