What's wrong at Villa?

[blandy]

16 hours ago, turvontour said:

I think we'd all agree, that there's something fundementally wrong at this football club....

I don't agree. I'm not saying everything's perfect, but there's not a "fundamental" flaw or problem.

It's a football club with good facilities, a good owner, decent players for the league it's in, a good fanbase. A manager who has, as people keep telling us, a good record of getting promoted (he wasn't my choice and my opinion of him hasn't changed, but that's neither here nor there). The board of the club is one which seems to have the best interests of the club at heart, and seems qualified to be doing the roles they've been given.

There was a fundamental problem the past 2 years or so - there was an owner who wasn't interested and then there was a Chief Exec who was dangerously unsuitable for the job he was given, and who appeared to hollow away some the soul of the club and some good people, while other wasters were for one reason or another kept on. But that was then

There is at worst a team which isn't being coached as well as it should be, and there's a short term thing with trying to get a style of football that matches the talents of the squad. But there's no fundamental problem, there's no curse, there's no particular bad luck, or "why is it always us"? nonsense. There's no right to be in any division or any position in the table. Everything has to be earned through hard work, skill, talent and so on. It's a highly competitive league.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong at all. There are many many things that are fundamentally right, though.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

49 minutes ago, blandy said:

I don't agree. I'm not saying everything's perfect, but there's not a "fundamental" flaw or problem.

It's a football club with good facilities, a good owner, decent players for the league it's in, a good fanbase. A manager who has, as people keep telling us, a good record of getting promoted (he wasn't my choice and my opinion of him hasn't changed, but that's neither here nor there). The board of the club is one which seems to have the best interests of the club at heart, and seems qualified to be doing the roles they've been given.

There was a fundamental problem the past 2 years or so - there was an owner who wasn't interested and then there was a Chief Exec who was dangerously unsuitable for the job he was given, and who appeared to hollow away some the soul of the club and some good people, while other wasters were for one reason or another kept on. But that was then

There is at worst a team which isn't being coached as well as it should be, and there's a short term thing with trying to get a style of football that matches the talents of the squad. But there's no fundamental problem, there's no curse, there's no particular bad luck, or "why is it always us"? nonsense. There's no right to be in any division or any position in the table. Everything has to be earned through hard work, skill, talent and so on. It's a highly competitive league.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong at all. There are many many things that are fundamentally right, though.

This question might seem off topic for this thread, but I think it's pertinent: why wasn't he your choice and did you have any doubts about him before his appointment?

[blandy]

3 hours ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

This question might seem off topic for this thread, but I think it's pertinent: why wasn't he your choice and did you have any doubts about him before his appointment?

It does - I gave my reasons before and at the time of the appointment in the relevant thread(s).

[srsmithusa]

9 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

1. We overpay in wages.

so does every team in this league and the one above

2. There has been too much change over the past 3 seasons and we need a period of relative stability.

which parts of our relegation performance side should we not have changed.   When you are utter shite, change is your only hope.  I have no desire for stability where we are.  I want much, much, better. If we were easily top 2, you might get me to support stability, not when we're a shambles 

3. We expect success too quickly. This leads to managers making expensive and/or short term deals rather than investing in the medium to long term. 

I thought managers were highly skilled and experienced professionals, I guess they are just sheep

4. We now have the awful reputation with players and managers that we are a poisoned chalice for your long term career. The only reason to play for or manage Villa is for the cash. 

so let's just be patient and stable until that changes.... how?

5. We are a club that is perceived by all to be in deep trouble and on the way down. That's going to impact on the players we can attract, the sponsors we can attract, the money we earn and the desire of good players to stay. 

Again, how can you write that and support stability   We need impatience and demand and high expectation, not patience, not giving it time to see if it gets better.  Crossing my fingers and hoping has rarely worked in my life  

 

[Grasshopper]

21 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

We don't score enough goals or win enough football matches.

When we kick that ball thingy, it doesnt seem to go to the players in the same shirts.

I noticed that sometimes we throw it but that doesnt work either

[dakid007]

Not a single team is scared to come to villa park.  

We have over rated over paid player who come from smaller teams and come to villa park / bodymoor Heath and think they've hit the jackpot.

ive seen a lot of these stadiums/ training grounds as my son plays for a academy and villa is in the top 10 in England 

[mikeyp102]

57 minutes ago, dakid007 said:

Not a single team is scared to come to villa park.  

Disagree I think every team has been scared of coming to villa park and losing. Yesterday was our first home defeat f the season and I don't think I've seen a team come to win. Every team (Maybe Newcastle aside) has played for a draw.

[The Fun Factory]

I don't know but its now 18 wins out of the last 102 league games which is significantly less than 1 in 5 matches you see us winning. Let that sink in.  

Yes we have been that shit for that long.

And we still go back for more, when in all likelihood it is going to be more than 80% likely we will not get a win.

We are all sadists. 

[sheepyvillian]

Where to start ?

[ThunderPower_14]

I think overall we've made some really good moves since Dr Tony took over. I think Bruce was the right move. I think most of our signings have been good moves.

 

But you can't basically turnover and entire football department from the manager to most of the squad to the boot studder and expect it to click straight away.

 

It's tough to be patient now as a Villa fan because we were patient with Lerner and he led us further and further into the mire. We were patient with Lambert and he left us with both sides broken. But we've made positive moves. We've brought in talented players and we have a manager who knows what it takes to advance from this very difficult league.

 

We were absolutely destroyed as a football club. It took years and years of mismanagement to get us where we were. It's not going to be repaired in a few months, even with that sort of investment. We need to consolidate this year and launch next year.

[Grasshopper]

Simple

The manager and coaching staff is whats wrong. The tactics, formation, intructions to the players and the player choices for the positions along with the substitutions that are reiterated for the above.

All these responsibilities are down to the manager.

When a new manager takes on the position in ANY field, he can only be as good as the team he has, restructures and the tools he has at his disposal.

Bruce has had a wealth of talent at his disposal along with some sub-standarders/descenders and bogstandarders.

He has made mistake after mistake with his decisions. Whereas he got lucky and away with it initially, he has simply reverted to his "go to" way that has worked at clubs that simply dont have the size, expectation and now wealth that is AVFC.

But the proof of the pudding is not at the press conferences or the after match assesments. That is either the intend or excuses/explanations of what went wrong. The true reflection of what is exactly happening is matchdays the 90+mins and the results that give us our league table position.

If we go back to the beginning of SB's reign. He could have/should have implemented a set up that we c/should have fine tuned with the JanWin signings, but without a plan, one cant plan.

With the following players used with a clear concept of play & formation there is no reason why we couldnt be in the top 10 within striking distance from 6th

Gk Gollini - Bunn

RB Bacuna - Hutton

RCB Chester - Elphick

LCB Baker - Chester

LB Amavi - Aly

DM Jedi - Westwood

CM Westwood - Tish - Gardner

AM McC - Ayew - Grealish

ST Kodjia - Gestede

There was enough there to be comfortable in this league, but he completely missed the boat in trying to get a comprehendable formation and play objective that could have improved over time.

But where are we now and how far have we come?

Playoffs have gone and a continium will see us get closer and closer to L1.

People were laughing at the L1 possibility when RDM was in charge, but he would have eventually got us there had he stayed.

So what's happening now? Exactly the same, and some people here are prepared to wait, give it time, for what? To get to the same position and disaster that RDM was nosediving us into?

Its so obvious what is wrong with the player selection, formation, tactics and substitutions that even many fans can see it.

It seems so obvious that

1) GK SJ needs replacing with Bunn (yes even Bunn) or get Kirkland in.

2) Bacuna instead of Hutton at RB/WB or Adomah @ WB

3) if its a 3 then Elphick right with Chester in the middle

4) Taylor (when fit) at LB Amavi at WB not Thor

5) No Jedi -> 3@back -> push MF's further forward

6) Hourihane not left side of MF

7) Lansbury not so deep

8) Stop hoofing to Kodjia & Hogan

All these are factors Bruce is getting fatally wrong imho.

But it all boils down to one thing.

Bruce is who he is and what he is. He wont change because he cant change. Anyone expecting anything different is delusional.

He was a possible quick fix to get us up this season. So since that ship has sailed he is not the one to give access to an open cheque book based recruitment policy designed by Round.

Round can design a squad with ballplayers till his hearts consent, but giving Bruce access to that pool of players and then instructing them to sit back and hoof it, is pure madness and absolutely wrong.

I wont even begin to list the mistakes ranging from GK, SJ for Gollini through to CF, Gaby and everything inbetween.

Bruce is causing damage, and the longer he's here the more damage he will do. The longer he stays the harder the job becomes for the next manager. An eventual relegation, will set us back not only years, but may cost us the very man DrT who has the money to finance our return to the PL.

Simple solution

Step 1 -> Sack Bruce, Calderwood, Clements and whoever else has an input on the team.

Step 2 - Design a future for the club

Step 3 - Appoint someone who fits

 

[villan_007]

2 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

to an open cheque book based recruitment policy designed by Round.

Round can design a squad with ballplayers till his hearts consent, but giving Bruce access to that pool of players and then instructing them to sit back and hoof it, is pure madness and absolutely wrong.

Another thread, and another attack on Round. Round could probably smack you on the nose in the supermarket and you wouldn't know who he is.

What do you and a few others know that the rest of us don't? How have you seen the recruitment policy he designed? How is Round instructing the team?

I ignored the rest of your post because of your Bruce out protest. Too biased.

Your in depth Round analysis I'm eager to see though.

[Mantis]

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again: I think part of our problems can be attributed to mentality. It's hard to explain, but it's like there's an air of defeat and weakness around the club. It's an inevitable result of all these years of decline. Although we've changed everything, some things several times over, many of the same issues still persist. Most managers end up playing terrible, ultra-defensive football even if they don't necessarily have a track-record of it prior to Villa (e.g. Lambert). We never control games and we're never scoring lots of goals consistently, in spite of all this talent we have. We constantly squander leads and collapse when we concede. All these issues seem to persist despite the playing and managerial staff. Because we've become so closely linked to defeat, weakness and fragility, it gets passed onto new arrivals. It helps to explain why we so often buy players with good track records who then just don't deliver, before going on to do better elsewhere.

Put it this way. When we're holding onto a lead we as fans all know that we're likely to crumble at some point. We expect it. It's what we're used to and it's what Villa have been doing for years. Now if we expect it, why won't players expect it also? The last few years make the club a breeding ground for low-confidence and mental fragility.

Unfortunately I think the only way to "banish" this air of defeat and weakness is to put together a consistently good season of getting results and playing well, or at the very least half a season. So far every time over the past few years where we've looked like we might be turning a corner we end up going backwards. If we can start to be associated with something other than weakness or boring football then I think that's when things are finally getting better.

This isn't a "curse" by the way, nor do I think the manager or players are blameless (far from it). However, the mental side of football is over understated.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Mantis

[srsmithusa]

2 minutes ago, Mantis said:

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again: I think part of our problems can be attributed to mentality. It's hard to explain, but it's like there's an air of defeat and weakness around the club. It's an inevitable result of all these years of decline. Although we've changed everything, some things several times over, many of the same issues still persist. Most managers end up playing terrible, ultra-defensive football even if they don't necessarily have a track-record of it prior to Villa (e.g. Lambert). We never control games and we're never scoring lots of goals consistently, in spite of all this talent we have. We constantly squander leads and collapse when we concede. All these issues seem to persist despite the playing and managerial staff. Because we've become so closely linked to defeat, weakness and fragility, it gets passed onto new arrivals. It helps to explain why we so often buy players with good track records who then just don't deliver, before going on to do better elsewhere.

Put it this way. When we're holding onto a lead we as fans all know that we're likely to crumble at some point. We expect it. It's what we're used to and it's what Villa have been doing for years. Now if we expect it, why won't players expect it also? The last few years make the club a breeding ground for low-confidence and mental fragility.

Unfortunately I think the only way to "banish" this air of defeat and weakness is to put together a consistently good season of getting results and playing well, or at the very least half a season. So far every time over the past few years where we've looked like we might be turning a corner we end up going backwards.

This isn't a "curse" by the way, nor do I think the manager or players are blameless (far from it). However, the mental side of football is over understated.

Absolutely correct and why I'm convinced that giving Bruce time is the worst thing we can do.  It perpetuates that atmosphere, the mentality that treats losing as probable and accepted.   The playing staff will accept moderate effort from themselves and moderate results as good enough as long as the board does.   Some already do, the new players might still be salvaged before the acceptance of mediocrity becomes engrained in them.  

[wilko154]

20 hours ago, ermie123 said:

Suffice to say i left Villa Park feeling very frustrated, freezing cold with the highlight of the day being the chicken balti pie and the extra one i kept to be eaten on the way home.  

I'll try a chicken balti pie tomorrow, gives me something to look forward to...

[Mantis]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

Absolutely correct and why I'm convinced that giving Bruce time is the worst thing we can do.  It perpetuates that atmosphere, the mentality that treats losing as probable and accepted.   The playing staff will accept moderate effort from themselves and moderate results as good enough as long as the board does.   Some already do, the new players might still be salvaged before the acceptance of mediocrity becomes engrained in them.  

I agree, although my fear is that even if we get in somebody with a track-record for playing winning, attacking football, the negative air around the club will grind them down unless they hit the ground running and sustain it.

[fightoffyour]

We've changed the owner, the board, the manager and the players and there is still a fundamental problem.

But there is one thing that hasn't changed in that time. Something rotten at the very core of the club, within Villa Park: the half time catering. If the fans are unable to even get served a pie and a pint within 15 minutes, imagine how the playing staff must be suffering. No wonder then that we come out every 2nd half like we're playing underwater.

[thejoker]

A big problem for me is that we still don't have any leaders. We've signed 'captains' from other teams, but no one takes responsibility. We haven't got a single player that 'shouts and balls' instructions to his team mates. Where is our Martin Laursen type figure? 

All of our defenders are just too 'nicey nicey'. We need a real leader at the back with a bit of nastiness. Our own 'John Terry' type figure (and I'm not suggesting that we should sign John Terry!).

[srsmithusa]

4 hours ago, Mantis said:

I agree, although my fear is that even if we get in somebody with a track-record for playing winning, attacking football, the negative air around the club will grind them down unless they hit the ground running and sustain it.

Absolutely.   But if I may, we agree that the only chance to change this is for someone to hit the ground running and sustain it.  Which is convincing evidence that Bruce cannot be the one to change it, despite the hopes of those who assert that stability will change it.   There is no guarantee that a change will work, but it seems abundantly clear that holding a steady rudder certainly will not.

[kurtsimonw]

If we don't pick up a win in the next 4 or 5, then I'd consider it. Right now? No chance I'd even be thinking about changing manager again.