blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 12 minutes ago, peterms said: Isn't he likely to be out of a job whether we go up or stay where we are? The comments about being one of the top sides in the world, and building three teams to get promoted, push on and compete at the top would suggest [so].. Ultimately, yes, I'd think so. But that's kind of the point, really. It's a given he's on a limited time span (especially if we don't look like going up) - he knows it as well as we do. So "stop moaning about it, like you didn't know this, Steve". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 5 minutes ago, blandy said: Ultimately, yes, I'd think so. But that's kind of the point, really. It's a given he's on a limited time span (especially if we don't look like going up) - he knows it as well as we do. So "stop moaning about it, like you didn't know this, Steve". I wonder about the effect on him and his motivation. If you feel you're going to be sacked whether you succeed or fail, it's likely to be pretty demoralising. It's also not going to do much for his morale if he thinks other people see it that way as well. Which is another reason why going for a Wagner-type manager with the promise of building patiently for the long term would have been better. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, peterms said: I wonder about the effect on him and his motivation. If you feel you're going to be sacked whether you succeed or fail, it's likely to be pretty demoralising. It's also not going to do much for his morale if he thinks other people see it that way as well. Which is another reason why going for a Wagner-type manager with the promise of building patiently for the long term would have been better. I wouldn't say it was carved in stone exactly. He could've, and still can help himself. He needs to cut the bullshit, on and off the pitch, and deliver performances worthy of a continuation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 43 minutes ago, peterms said: I wonder about the effect on him and his motivation. If you feel you're going to be sacked whether you succeed or fail, it's likely to be pretty demoralising. ... I wonder if he might think that if he gets us up, then he'll be given a go to take the club on further? Sure he'll know that quite a few managers take teams up, struggle at the higher level and then lose their jobs, but also that it's almost certain that they at least get a chance... I don't think he'll get us up, nor would I have ever given him the job, but he's got it now and he needs to stfu about how hard it is. He knew the lie of the land when he took the job. But that's my view - I imagine / hope his view is that he's a good manager and can get us up...and will get a chance... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, striker said: Did it need strengthing though? Certainly imo opinion the second half of last season the first choice Villa defence was becoming very solid. Chester, Baker and Taylor especially. But Bruce changed it with the signing of Terry (needlessly in my opinion and that's not with hindsight due to saying it at the time when Terry signed) and then sold Baker. Thought that was a mistake and have seen nothing yet to change my opinion. The old adage when it's not broken don't fix it applies here with the consequence that Villa's defence is less solid due to buying a name at the end of his playing career. How many times have Villa done that over the years? Terry is an upgrade on baker - give him time and he will prove his worth as the season progresses , it's a new central defensive partnership and they will take time to get used to each others game . How many goals have been down to hutton so far this season - he has been the weakest link in defence. Jt is not the problem - the problem is the manager not giving his players the freedom to play their game. Edited August 28, 2017 by Eastie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 10 hours ago, TrentVilla said: I wouldn't let Wyness pick anothe rmanager if I were the Dr. He should be straight out the door with Bruce. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 9 hours ago, vreitti said: I wouldn't say it was carved in stone exactly. He could've, and still can help himself. He needs to cut the bullshit, on and off the pitch, and deliver performances worthy of a continuation. I absolutely agree. It is not about Steve Bruce the person, but Steve Bruce the manager. When he first took over from RDM, he was great. An ideal situation would be he has a moment of clarity, he digs deep and plays to win, so he can turn this ship around in the right direction. It would be terrible for the club to have to jump on the new manager merry go round again, but because he is very unlikely to change, this is why we are having this discussion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted August 28, 2017 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 28, 2017 11 hours ago, Eastie said: Terry is an upgrade on baker - give him time and he will prove his worth as the season progresses , it's a new central defensive partnership and they will take time to get used to each others game . How many goals have been down to hutton so far this season - he has been the weakest link in defence. Jt is not the problem - the problem is the manager not giving his players the freedom to play their game. I hope your right mate I really do but for that to happen Terry will have to play a lot of games and I'm not sure he's up to that anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 19 hours ago, Eastie said: Terry is an upgrade on baker - give him time and he will prove his worth as the season progresses , it's a new central defensive partnership and they will take time to get used to each others game . How many goals have been down to hutton so far this season - he has been the weakest link in defence. Jt is not the problem - the problem is the manager not giving his players the freedom to play their game. By the time he's up to speed (if ever) half the season will be gone and we will still not be in contention - then next season he's gone and we go again. A mistake to let Baker go 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, VillaCas said: By the time he's up to speed (if ever) half the season will be gone and we will still not be in contention - then next season he's gone and we go again. A mistake to let Baker go It was a mistake to let baker go only as he would be better back up to samba or elphick . No way should baker be in the team ahead of terry or Chester . Another advantage of terry is he's comfortable in possession - he started as a youth at Chelsea in midfield whereas baker hoofs it more often than not . Im hoping the return of jedinak will see the team link up better between defence and midfield and provide the cover for the centre backs that has been lacking . when people point to the defence last season it has to be noted jedinak played a big part in protecting the back 4 . Edited August 29, 2017 by Eastie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Eastie said: It was a mistake to let baker go only as he would be better back up to samba or elphick . True 1 hour ago, Eastie said: No way should baker be in the team ahead of terry or Chester . true 1 hour ago, Eastie said: Another advantage of terry is he's comfortable in possession - he started as a youth at Chelsea in midfield whereas baker hoofs it more often than not . on Friday playing for Bristol I dont recall him hoofing once. He played balls across the back 4 and forward passes as there was movement from the MF players showing for the ball rather than like under Bruce a static 9 outfield players sitting back hence a risky short pass or a hoof being his options 1 hour ago, Eastie said: Im hoping the return of jedinak will see the team link up better between defence and midfield and provide the cover for the centre backs that has been lacking . Jedi cant make a 5yrd pass 1 hour ago, Eastie said: when people point to the defence last season it has to be noted jedinak played a big part in protecting the back 4 . true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: True true on Friday playing for Bristol I dont recall him hoofing once. He played balls across the back 4 and forward passes as there was movement from the MF players showing for the ball rather than like under Bruce a static 9 outfield players sitting back hence a risky short pass or a hoof being his options Jedi cant make a 5yrd pass true I think he can make a 5 yard pass but struggles with anything over 10 yards - he breaks up play and for that reason I'd have him in front of the back 4 - interesting to see how Bruce plays it with Jedi back - I'm thinking he will go 4231 with Jedi and whelan deep - there are many options with this squad but I fear he will go for the negative one . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 29, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted August 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Eastie said: It was a mistake to let baker go only as he would be better back up to samba or elphick . No way should baker be in the team ahead of terry or Chester . Another advantage of terry is he's comfortable in possession - he started as a youth at Chelsea in midfield whereas baker hoofs it more often than not . Im hoping the return of jedinak will see the team link up better between defence and midfield and provide the cover for the centre backs that has been lacking . when people point to the defence last season it has to be noted jedinak played a big part in protecting the back 4 . Agree with this. If Baker was still here he wouldn't be starting. Terry's been fine so far. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted August 29, 2017 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 29, 2017 15 minutes ago, Eastie said: I think he can make a 5 yard pass but struggles with anything over 10 yards - he breaks up play and for that reason I'd have him in front of the back 4 - interesting to see how Bruce plays it with Jedi back - I'm thinking he will go 4231 with Jedi and whelan deep - there are many options with this squad but I fear he will go for the negative one . What about Whelan. Was he not supposed to be Jedi's replacement protecting the defence and allowing others to play yet Villa have still been vulnerable in defence this season? Since the signing of Whelan my biggest fear for the Villa under Bruce has been Bruce playing both Jedi and Whelan in the same team against Championship sides. Villa don't need two defensive midfielders in the Championship as they have enough attacking options now to to put most teams to the sword in this division. Ability wise the JT of two years ago would have been head and shoulders above any Villa defender that started this season but Terry is no longer that player. Villa didn't need to pay the extra outlay on JT's wages when they already had a solid central defensive partnership in Baker and Chester who were playing well together and had built such an an understanding that they were ready from the off this season. The decision to split that partnership in compensating for the arrival of Terry is, imo, the main reason why Villa are less secure at the back and nothing to do with the absence of Jedinak who again imo is not as good as Whelan. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Also, a great way to improve our defence is to be much more on the offence. We have gifted attacking players who are getting starved up front because we are taking too much of a defensive stance. Attack, take no prisoners, and take the battle to them. And score more goals than they do. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastie Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, striker said: What about Whelan. Was he not supposed to be Jedi's replacement protecting the defence and allowing others to play yet Villa have still been vulnerable in defence this season? Since the signing of Whelan my biggest fear for the Villa under Bruce has been Bruce playing both Jedi and Whelan in the same team against Championship sides. Villa don't need two defensive midfielders in the Championship as they have enough attacking options now to to put most teams to the sword in this division. Ability wise the JT of two years ago would have been head and shoulders above any Villa defender that started this season but Terry is no longer that player. Villa didn't need to pay the extra outlay on JT's wages when they already had a solid central defensive partnership in Baker and Chester who were playing well together and had built such an an understanding that they were ready from the off this season. The decision to split that partnership in compensating for the arrival of Terry is, imo, the main reason why Villa are less secure at the back and nothing to do with the absence of Jedinak who again imo is not as good as Whelan. Jedinak is a better defensive midfielder than whelan but whelan is a better passer - Bruce may use both in some away games but certainly shouldn't do so at home - baker and Chester were ok last season but nothing special - let's not forget we were set up very negatively and still finished 13th . Terry is a huge upgrade in quality than baker , he's comfortable in possession and a great organiser - we have been exposed countless times down the right in the 2 games at Cardiff and reading where hutton was far the weakest link in defence . Last season you made clear in numerous posts your feelings about jedinak and how bad he is but the record with him in the team proves how much a difference he makes . Edited August 29, 2017 by Eastie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 When and if a new manager comes in he will have a huge number of senior players who all expect to be regular starters, many of whom will be very much "Bruce players". Depending on how the players react this could turn out to be a big problem for whoever takes over. It's well and fine to have competition for places, but 3 senior RB's ( if you count Elmo. 4 if you count Richards) + Bree and 3 senior RW's all close to 30 y.o who will all want to play. 2 ageing holding DCM + Onomah. Lansbury, Hourihane, Onomah, Snodgrass & Grealish, Thor? competing for 1 or 2 creative attacking midfield slots. Green and Taylor (Grealish & Thor?) as our left sided options. And when Kodija is back 4 senior very expensive strikers + Davis competing for 1 or possibly 2 places. Either way you do it we will have many 100.000's of pounds in wages outside the match day squad. Some of whom like Richards and Gabby will of course be happy just sitting around picking up wages. But most will want to play. Bruce needs to sort out the squad, both for his sake and for whom ever picks up when he's sacked. But most of all because the club cant afford to carry this legion of players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 29 minutes ago, striker said: What about Whelan. Was he not supposed to be Jedi's replacement protecting the defence and allowing others to play yet Villa have still been vulnerable in defence this season? Since the signing of Whelan my biggest fear for the Villa under Bruce has been Bruce playing both Jedi and Whelan in the same team against Championship sides. Villa don't need two defensive midfielders in the Championship as they have enough attacking options now to to put most teams to the sword in this division. Exactly, and you just know Bruce will make sure he finds a way to utilize them both at the same time, irrespective of what it does to our build up and attacking play. We will be set up not to concede, and hope to snatch a few 1-0 wins every other week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 26 minutes ago, AJ said: Also, a great way to improve our defence is to be much more on the offence. We have gifted attacking players who are getting starved up front because we are taking too much of a defensive stance. Attack, take no prisoners, and take the battle to them. And score more goals than they do. Yup, makes a lot of sense really. I think we're treating teams with a little too much respect at times, to our detriment. It also looks as though Bruce is more comfortable having a limited side that are viewed as underdogs more often than favourites and he doesn't seem to trust them to express themselves enough to dominate a game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 7 minutes ago, lexicon said: Yup, makes a lot of sense really. I think we're treating teams with a little too much respect at times, to our detriment. It also looks as though Bruce is more comfortable having a limited side that are viewed as underdogs more often than favourites and he doesn't seem to trust them to express themselves enough to dominate a game. Consider this. 4 promotions, with teams with less resources and expectations than Villa. Bruce comes in, inherits a team with next to no midfield, and takes us from the bottom half to pushing for a play off spot. He gets a transfer window, choosing his players, but crumbles during January and February. By the grace of Kodija's return, we hit a purple patch for about 7 or 8 games, but fall to shit again. After a pre season and a few more acquisitions, the roster is looking great but its just the same old shit. I am thinking that Bruce works best without the weight of too much expectation, and relishes the underdog status. Despite his experience, I am suspecting he is too overawed with the job at Villa. If this is the case, he is the wrong manager for us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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