Steve Bruce

[vreitti]

5 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Spoken like someone who's never played a game of football in their life.

Sadly I've played for more than 25 years. Actually lost our season opener yesterday. If only we'd have had Bruce to oversee our preseason.

Edited April 26, 2017 by vreitti

[BOF]

9 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

You raise an interesting issue here around who have been our best performers.

Chester and Baker have been the preferred centre back pairing for most of the season and have built up a good understanding. Hutton has been here a long time and for me is doing what he has always done in giving his all the major difference being that he looks much better as we have dropped down a level. Taylor has slotted in nicely. Jedi has been a rock just by keeping things simple in front of the back four. All the players mentioned so far are defensive players and the only ones that have had to build up an understanding with those around them are Chester and Baker and they have hit it off.

The other player to have consistently shone this season is Kodjia. A more head down single minded forward you would struggle to find and for this reason he hasn't relied on having to link up with others and form a partnership.

That leads to the reason why I think others haven't produced for us yet. The likes of Hourihane, Hogan, Lansbury and McCormack games are reliant on those around them. They do rely on linking up with others, reading each others runs, playing off another player etc. Unfortunately building up those kind of relationships on the pitch takes time and it is for me the main reason why we have frequently looked disjointed. If we consider that Taylor, Lansbury, Hourihane, Hogan will be part of our best 10 outfield players at the moment then they have been here 3 months all trying to fit into a team amongst a handful of others who have been here for under a season. 

I fully expect after a full pre season together 4 or 5 players who have yet to find their feet to hit the ground running next season and us to look a much more cohesive unit. When you make the amount of changes we have over the last 9 months, something like 35 ins/outs, throw into the mix having two managers and numerous coaching staff, then as much as none of us want it to be the case it is little surprise that it is going to take time for it to come together.

I like posts that give me new angles and make me think, but which also make sense.  Far too few of those on here but this is one.  I'd never really separated our signings into positions that need cohesiveness and ones who can get by more solitary, but it absolutely makes sense.  I've said recently that 'on paper' I believe the first team personnel are good enough right now (substitutes notwithstanding).  When they gel (rather than if...), then I hope against hope that people will be pleasantly surprised.

[vreitti]

6 hours ago, terrytini said:

More generally, wouldn't you agree that whatever the subject matter - especially anything involving relationships between individuals - the longer a Manager has to prepare would, usually, be more likely to produce better results ?

Absolutely, and with the time Bruce has already had, he should've done far better, which is my entire point.

6 hours ago, terrytini said:

Also looking at your comment  a different way, if Conte HAD a pre-season and "whatever he did didn't pay dividends then maybe Bruce, who DIDN'T have one, can be excused his 'intra season' coaching not paying dividends ?

Fair enough, but consider for a second when Conte actually arrived, and how long it took him to realize what needed to be done. In comparison Bruce has already had a lot more time, preseason or not. A straight off comparison like this is of course unfair on Bruce, given the material Conte has is far superior in every aspect, but I think my point is still valid from a strict theoretical point of view. And as I've alluded before, my biggest gripe with Bruce is that he seems content with the way we are playing. Sure he says otherwise, but I think it's evident he isn't trying to change things as of now. He may have reasons for this, reasons that are beyond my knowledge of things, nevertheless I can't get over the feeling he should've done a lot better, as I still after 30 games cannot see anything apart from 10 men sitting deep, defending, and lumping the ball upfield, hoping that Kodjia does his magic.

All this might of course change, during or after the preseason, and I hope to god you, and everyone else still behind him are correct, as I know he isn't going anywhere, however much I cry about it here.

[Grasshopper]

2 hours ago, BOF said:

I like posts that give me new angles and make me think, but which also make sense.  Far too few of those on here but this is one.  I'd never really separated our signings into positions that need cohesiveness and ones who can get by more solitary, but it absolutely makes sense.  I've said recently that 'on paper' I believe the first team personnel are good enough right now (substitutes notwithstanding).  When they gel (rather than if...), then I hope against hope that people will be pleasantly surprised.

Mark always makes perfect sense. Such a shame that we have a guy in charge who's not capable of implementing that what we all want to see.

[Villan_of_oz]

1 hour ago, vreitti said:

Absolutely, and with the time Bruce has already had, he should've done far better, which is my entire point.

Fair enough, but consider for a second when Conte actually arrived, and how long it took him to realize what needed to be done. In comparison Bruce has already had a lot more time, preseason or not. A straight off comparison like this is of course unfair on Bruce, given the material Conte has is far superior in every aspect, but I think my point is still valid from a strict theoretical point of view. And as I've alluded before, my biggest gripe with Bruce is that he seems content with the way we are playing. Sure he says otherwise, but I think it's evident he isn't trying to change things as of now. He may have reasons for this, reasons that are beyond my knowledge of things, nevertheless I can't get over the feeling he should've done a lot better, as I still after 30 games cannot see anything apart from 10 men sitting deep, defending, and lumping the ball upfield, hoping that Kodjia does his magic.

All this might of course change, during or after the preseason, and I hope to god you, and everyone else still behind him are correct, as I know he isn't going anywhere, however much I cry about it here.

How many new signings did Conte make?

How many pieces of deadwood did Conte have to move on?

Why are we comparing one of the elite managers in the world (who wouldn't cone to Villa under any circumstances right now) with a very decent manager (who is in fact ecstatic to manage us)

[terrytini]

Fair points  vreitti.

And Villan Of Oz

We will see come August one way or the other, of that I'm sure.

[terrytini]

1 hour ago, Grasshopper said:

Mark always makes perfect sense. Such a shame that we have a guy in charge who's not capable of implementing that what we all want to see.

That's where maybe where you and I differ most. I think he IS capable of implementing it.

We shall, no doubt, see.

[sheepyvillian]

A very decent manager? Try telling that to Sunderland fans .

[Grasshopper]

3 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

A very decent manager? Try telling that to Sunderland fans .

and VT before the years out

[Villan_of_oz]

4 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

A very decent manager? Try telling that to some villa fans.

Fixed

[Delphinho123]

He has the knack of being able to win matches without playing well.

That isn't enough to get us out of this league though. I'm fully behind Bruce but our performances as a whole need to improve next season.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

Whilst I'm not about to disagree with GT or TB, it was a different game in those days with regards to how clubs functioned. The manager was in charge of almost everything, where as now we have directors of football, CEOs and the like running the club and shaping the culture and direction they want their clubs to go in. At least they should be!

Yes Dave, era's do have to be taken in to consideration and they didn't have the restrictions of transfer windows......also the commercial side of the club is far more complex hence requiring further staff.

Despite the obvious changes that occur as football evolves, there are principles that rarely change.....in my view, it's those principles they were referring to.

when you have dropped as far as we have you cannot always buy players the ideal players you want you have to evolve towards them......thats what GT And TB was telling me.....if you remember, we bought a Frank Carradus and then Evolved to Des Bremner as a better version.

IMO some of us are forming our opinions on SB too soon......one window and no pre season is too soon to judge.

I am also of the opinion that the transfers in Jan was a bit rushed and it could materialise that the haste, which was inevitable under the circumstances, may need revisiting.

Transfer windows IMO opinion have slowed down the whole process of a massive demise and we just have to be patient.

If the manager can't see it or has no idea how to change it, I would be joining in with the SB out brigade.....my humble opinion is he still does not have the balance right and he knows it.....and will attempt to put it right in the summer.

just remember too, not every player comes off.....at any club and there are plenty of examples.

[Villan_of_oz]

4 hours ago, vreitti said:

Sadly I've played for more than 25 years. Actually lost our season opener yesterday. If only we'd have had Bruce to oversee our preseason.

Don't worry mate if you lost its your gaffers fault. Players don't have anything to do with results. So rest easy. 

[vreitti]

2 minutes ago, Villan_of_oz said:

Don't worry mate if you lost its your gaffers fault. Players don't have anything to do with results. So rest easy. 

It sure was. He had me playing as centreback, and I was terrible.

[Grasshopper]

I posted earlier that Round should appoint someone a bit "Suit, shirt & tie Armani style" rather than Rag 'n Bone Man Bruce.

Here's the lyrics to one of Rag 'n Bone Man's songs

Human

I'm only human
I'm only, I'm only
I'm only human, human

Maybe I'm foolish
Maybe I'm blind
Thinking I can see through this
And see what's behind
Got no way to prove it
So maybe I'm blind
But I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put your blame on me
Don't put your blame on me


Take a look in the mirror
And what do you see
Do you see it clearer
Or are you deceived
In what you believe
'Cause I'm only human after all
You're only human after all
Don't put the blame on me
Don't put your blame on me

Some people got the real problems
Some people out of luck
Some people think I can solve them
Lord heavens above
I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put the blame on me
Don't put the blame on me

Don't ask my opinion
Don't ask me to lie
Then beg for forgiveness
For making you cry
Making you cry
'Cause I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put your blame on me
Don't put the blame on me

Oh, some people got the real problems
Some people out of luck
Some people think I can solve them
Lord heavens above
I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put the blame on me
Don't put the blame on me

I'm only human
I make mistakes
I'm only human
That's all it takes
To put the blame on me
Don't put the blame on me

I'm no prophet or Messiah
Should go looking somewhere higher
I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put the blame on me
Don't put the blame on me

I'm only human
I do what I can
I'm just a man
I do what I can
Don't put the blame on me
Don't put your blame on me

 

Looks like they share more than just a few Kebabs

[Nigel]

22 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

A very decent manager? Try telling that to Sunderland fans .

Hmmm theres a lesson here somewhere!

[TRO]

14 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

You raise an interesting issue here around who have been our best performers.

Chester and Baker have been the preferred centre back pairing for most of the season and have built up a good understanding. Hutton has been here a long time and for me is doing what he has always done in giving his all the major difference being that he looks much better as we have dropped down a level. Taylor has slotted in nicely. Jedi has been a rock just by keeping things simple in front of the back four. All the players mentioned so far are defensive players and the only ones that have had to build up an understanding with those around them are Chester and Baker and they have hit it off.

The other player to have consistently shone this season is Kodjia. A more head down single minded forward you would struggle to find and for this reason he hasn't relied on having to link up with others and form a partnership.

That leads to the reason why I think others haven't produced for us yet. The likes of Hourihane, Hogan, Lansbury and McCormack games are reliant on those around them. They do rely on linking up with others, reading each others runs, playing off another player etc. Unfortunately building up those kind of relationships on the pitch takes time and it is for me the main reason why we have frequently looked disjointed. If we consider that Taylor, Lansbury, Hourihane, Hogan will be part of our best 10 outfield players at the moment then they have been here 3 months all trying to fit into a team amongst a handful of others who have been here for under a season. 

I fully expect after a full pre season together 4 or 5 players who have yet to find their feet to hit the ground running next season and us to look a much more cohesive unit. When you make the amount of changes we have over the last 9 months, something like 35 ins/outs, throw into the mix having two managers and numerous coaching staff, then as much as none of us want it to be the case it is little surprise that it is going to take time for it to come together.

Great post Mark, makes absolute sense to me.

I have a further thought though on the offensive side.....I endorse Steves attempts to get us hard to beat, but I still think he has done it with numbers as opposed  to players individually playing out of their skin.....that may sound like I think the defenders have been poor and I am certainly not saying that.On the surface I am with you they have been great.

example.

Jed, Baker And Chester have been the Kernel of our defence.....but my question is having Jed working so hard protecting them is that necessary and is it denying numbers elsewhere......I notice a concerning difference in our defence when Jed is absent, so are they as good as what we think they are......a question as opposed to a conclusion.

I wonder without Jed does Our 2 CB's dominate enough, should they not be pushing the team forward and denying the opposition space to play in. And subsequently keeping our shape much better.

just a thought.

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by TRO

[Delphinho123]

10 hours ago, terrytini said:

I don't think we can shop at Armani yet mate - however big we soon will be I think JJB is our limit for a while

I'd rather shop at JJB..

[bobzy]

11 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Spoken like someone who's never played a game of football in their life.

Terrible post - so unnecessarily condescending.

[blandy]

14 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

...who have been our best performers.

Chester and Baker have been the preferred centre back pairing for most of the season and have built up a good understanding. Hutton has been here a long time and for me is doing what he has always done in giving his all the major difference being that he looks much better as we have dropped down a level. Taylor has slotted in nicely. Jedi has been a rock just by keeping things simple in front of the back four. All the players mentioned so far are defensive players and the only ones that have had to build up an understanding with those around them are Chester and Baker and they have hit it off.

The other player to have consistently shone this season is Kodjia. A more head down single minded forward you would struggle to find and for this reason he hasn't relied on having to link up with others and form a partnership.

That leads to the reason why I think others haven't produced for us yet. The likes of Hourihane, Hogan, Lansbury and McCormack games are reliant on those around them. They do rely on linking up with others, reading each others runs, playing off another player etc. Unfortunately building up those kind of relationships on the pitch takes time and it is for me the main reason why we have frequently looked disjointed. If we consider that Taylor, Lansbury, Hourihane, Hogan will be part of our best 10 outfield players at the moment then they have been here 3 months all trying to fit into a team amongst a handful of others who have been here for under a season. 

I fully expect after a full pre season together 4 or 5 players who have yet to find their feet to hit the ground running next season and us to look a much more cohesive unit. When you make the amount of changes we have over the last 9 months, something like 35 ins/outs, throw into the mix having two managers and numerous coaching staff, then as much as none of us want it to be the case it is little surprise that it is going to take time for it to come together.

It's well reasoned as always, and I accept there's some truth and validity in the argument, but I'm not sure I really agree with the analysis.

I mean on Chester and Baker being defensive players and the only ones that have had to build up an understanding with those around them - well that's not true at all. The new goalkeeper, new left back, whoever is at right back Hutton/Bacuna etc. - all the defenders have to build up an understanding with each other. So, not for me, that one.

Kodjia, well yes and no. It's true that he's a rare type of forward who is able to make himself some opportunity to score in a game or to pick up on defensive errors often enough to have scored a fair few goals that way and so stand out.

I think the coaching of the defense since Bruce came in has been decent (or better than decent) - initially Bruce on his own, and then later Calderwood, a former defender himself. I think the reason the midfield and forwards apart from Kodjia haven't looked so good is less to do with having been here since January and much more to do with coaching and inconsistent team selection (not always avoidable, I accept). It looks like there is not enough time and work and know how being spent on getting midfielders and forwards to establish patterns of movement, play, runs, passing and so on. It looks like time spent on defensive work and on set pieces has had effect, but that there's something lacking in general offensive play.

There's been no improvement whatsoever in that area. None. I don't think there will be unless the coaching is improved in that area. That might happen in the summer and sure, players will come to understand each others' games better (all over the pitch) as long as the squad doesn't completely change again via "a lot of work to do on getting people out" and bringing new faces in, or through from the youth teams...

But for me, coaching is a major factor.