Steve Bruce

[TRO]

On 4/24/2017 at 15:11, PaulC said:

We will have serious problems with FFP. Cant see many signings unless we get rid of a number of players on our books. 

From what I have read from Keith Wyness.....He has FFP well under control and all the contingency plans are in place.

[sne]

3 minutes ago, BOF said:

Oh and it's a 'cloud' of @Grasshopper's  

Sure a few people in this thread might even call it a plague 

Edited April 25, 2017 by sne

[TRO]

3 hours ago, av1 said:

I read it that way too. 

But just a couple of weeks ago, he said something along the lines of;

'We can't keep having a big turn over of players, there will only be small changes in the summer, 1 or 2 in and a couple more out'

The two comments contradict each other massively. 

 

 

I think he has had second thoughts after the Fulham & Reading games.

[srsmithusa]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Maybe he is trying but its not working.

I wished you had of been standing next to me when I was listening to Graham Taylor explaining the rudiments of building a team that has just gone through seasons of demise and the management behind the scenes was woeful......It was enlightening and in my opinion very well explained.

You might be a bit more understanding with the size of the task SB has.

He knows all what we know, he see's all what we see.....that does not mean he can fix it with what he has otherwise, he would.

 

 

I wish I could have been there too.  I've been involved in changing organizational culture a few times.  It's never easy.  I have grown to giving Bruce more benefit of the doubt that maybe it's different in what is essentially the entertainment industry.  His methods would never work in the education field. I would feel more confident if you had left off the phrase...

"that does not mean he can fix it with what he has otherwise, he would"  That's what scares me.  He has not IMO "fixed it" with what he has (or what he got in January).  But "what we have" is all any of us have (hope that's not too confusing.)   As I've said, I think that IS the culture that needs to be fixed.  "We're doing the best we can given our current situation."  ALWAYS becomes an excuse for mediocrity.  Or in this case, bland, uninspiring performances with an improved point return.

[BOF]

I think the comments about being 'busy' in the summer were as much in relation to the work needed on the training ground as to any squad overhaul.  They certainly related to outgoings which is no bad thing, but they were also made directly after him criticising style and ball retention.  Bring in a few but make them quality, whilst evacuating the club's bowels of some of the other stuff.  Then get it all to GEL.

So, busy in one way and quiet in another.  Seemples!

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I wish I could have been there too.  I've been involved in changing organizational culture a few times.  It's never easy.  I have grown to giving Bruce more benefit of the doubt that maybe it's different in what is essentially the entertainment industry.  His methods would never work in the education field. I would feel more confident if you had left off the phrase...

"that does not mean he can fix it with what he has otherwise, he would"  That's what scares me.  He has not IMO "fixed it" with what he has (or what he got in January).  But "what we have" is all any of us have (hope that's not too confusing.)   As I've said, I think that IS the culture that needs to be fixed.  "We're doing the best we can given our current situation."  ALWAYS becomes an excuse for mediocrity.  Or in this case, bland, uninspiring performances with an improved point return.

He has bought players that are not giving us what we want at present.......There are options for the reasons......one is, its them, two is, its Bruce.

You make your choice like I do.

Liverpool bought Benteke and it didn't work ....it happens.

Those same players that he bought, may come good next season......just like Ken McNaught did after 20 odd games.

Its all too soon IMO to make sweeping judgments in such a small space of time on such a big task/Project.

However.....I did not expect him to fix all the playing problems in One window.

Edited April 25, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I wish I could have been there too.  I've been involved in changing organizational culture a few times.  It's never easy.  I have grown to giving Bruce more benefit of the doubt that maybe it's different in what is essentially the entertainment industry.  His methods would never work in the education field. I would feel more confident if you had left off the phrase...

"that does not mean he can fix it with what he has otherwise, he would"  That's what scares me.  He has not IMO "fixed it" with what he has (or what he got in January).  But "what we have" is all any of us have (hope that's not too confusing.)   As I've said, I think that IS the culture that needs to be fixed.  "We're doing the best we can given our current situation."  ALWAYS becomes an excuse for mediocrity.  Or in this case, bland, uninspiring performances with an improved point return.

I do understand the frustration everyone is experiencing and I would guess respectfully those that see the results only like me ( bought my ST for next year) find it easier to accept the turgid football.....because we wallow in the result only.

However, I am trying to understand with what Graham Told me and what Steve is doing to reconcile some kind of sense of it all.....I guess Steve has just tried to get the confidence in winning as his first priority to go in to next season with.

Incidently I had a similar conversation with Tony Barton too.....who echoed the same sentiments as GT

No one is right or wrong......some trust him to get it right like me.....and some don't and never did.

I take on board what those two guys told and I think Steve will get it right.

Its just everyones personal call on it.

ps When the time has gone past reasonable and there is no improvement, I may be agreeing with Grasshopper, who knows.

Edited April 25, 2017 by TRO

[srsmithusa]

We agree that "Fixing" all the playing staff issues in one window would be unrealistic.  I'm not convinced that is the biggest problem.  I still fear it's the culture.  (which is why players with great performances elsewhere come here and perform at a much lower level.....Option 3 in your first line I suppose.)

I think the culture is the problem.  It's been stated here that we had one, maybe two players "up" for the Derby.  Is that the players, is that Bruce, or is it the culture?  I think it's the culture and I'm still not convinced Bruce is doing what is needed to change it.

But he's getting good enough results (points wise) that he deserves the summer and a start at next season.  Then I think we'll see if his "fix" is working.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

We agree that "Fixing" all the playing staff issues in one window would be unrealistic.  I'm not convinced that is the biggest problem.  I still fear it's the culture.  (which is why players with great performances elsewhere come here and perform at a much lower level.....Option 3 in your first line I suppose.)

I think the culture is the problem.  It's been stated here that we had one, maybe two players "up" for the Derby.  Is that the players, is that Bruce, or is it the culture?  I think it's the culture and I'm still not convinced Bruce is doing what is needed to change it.

But he's getting good enough results (points wise) that he deserves the summer and a start at next season.  Then I think we'll see if his "fix" is working.

I read somewhere that other players were doing all the running at Barnsley and CH was taking all the plaudits.....now IF that is the case and the same with Lansbury that could be an explanation for not fixing the midfield.

I am not saying that is the case.....just quoting a mutation.

The midifield still does not look fixed to me......but there are oodles of opinions open for that.

I still have a quiet worry that the 2 CB's look less dominant when Jed is absent.....That concerns me......are they as good as we think they are or as good as the stats suggest, why if we are so dominant in defence do the 2 CB's push us forward like CB's of the past used to do.....and in doing so closing the gaps that the opposition thrive in?

I think there will be some surprising moves in the summer.

[sne]

I still have a slight fear that we are doing some of the same mistakes we did under Lerner.

I'm not sure the club has any idea or strategy of how we should play and therefore the managers and players brought in are a bit random.

I'm not convinced that the manager Bruce nor Di Matteo had 100% responsibility for finding and signing players, but that our football people are partly behind the signings.

I'm all for this approach in general, I just don't have complete faith in our "football people" yet.

 

Looking at our signings this season it does look like some half arsed version of money ball where someone has looked at the stats and thought, wow that is a lot of goals, must be good. Also lot of goals, must be good.

Many assist, must be good, and so on.

All this done without thought of how they are supposed to work together in a team, and what the formation and tactics should be.

Under Di Matteo this was painfully obvious as he tried to have about 6 striker on the field at the same time, but the players brought in under Bruce hasn't really fit into the way he want's to play either.

New midfielder with loads of goals and assist if you look at the stats, pretty much pointless signings the way we play. 

Hogan, who want's the ball on the floor, used as a target man...

Is there a strategy behind our signings or are we just buying players with good stats because we can afford to?

 

This isn't an attack on Bruce (or Di Matteo), as I'm not actually sure he's 100% the one who finds and makes these signings.

[DaveAV1]

The players who have had the most impact this season, in my opinion of course, are Kodjia, Jedi, Baker, Chester and Hutton, with an honourable mention for Taylor. I was, like many, very excited by the January signings, but Taylor who was probably the least exciting, is the only one who has shown any sort of consistency. 

This concerns me greatly because Hourihane, Lansbury and Hogan were probably the best players at their clubs and had all been having great seasons. I know people will say they need time and there is some truth in that, but they haven't just struggled they've been rubbish. The main reason for this I believe is that we don't play in a way that suits their style of play and so every ga,e they loose a bit more confidence and a bit more form. They all looked pretty decent for the first game or two but they've all gone backwards since then.

I'm concerned that we will never get the best out of them because we will never play a style that suits them. Steve Bruce keeps complaining about performances but continues to set us up negatively what ever formation he picks. The definition of madness is repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Equally worrying with another transfer window on the near horizon, does Steve Bruce have a plan regarding the type of players we need to suit the style he intends to play?

[Grasshopper]

 

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

ps When the time has gone past reasonable and there is no improvement, I may be agreeing with Grasshopper, who knows.

Your time will come oh Great TRO of Patience

[DaveAV1]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

I do understand the frustration everyone is experiencing and I would guess respectfully those that see the results only like me ( bought my ST for next year) find it easier to accept the turgid football.....because we wallow in the result only.

However, I am trying to understand with what Graham Told me and what Steve is doing to reconcile some kind of sense of it all.....I guess Steve has just tried to get the confidence in winning as his first priority to go in to next season with.

Incidently I had a similar conversation with Tony Barton too.....who echoed the same sentiments as GT

No one is right or wrong......some trust him to get it right like me.....and some don't and never did.

I take on board what those two guys told and I think Steve will get it right.

Its just everyones personal call on it.

ps When the time has gone past reasonable and there is no improvement, I may be agreeing with Grasshopper, who knows.

Whilst I'm not about to disagree with GT or TB, it was a different game in those days with regards to how clubs functioned. The manager was in charge of almost everything, where as now we have directors of football, CEOs and the like running the club and shaping the culture and direction they want their clubs to go in. At least they should be!

[DaveAV1]

6 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

 

Your time will come oh Great TRO of Patience

TRO is at about a quarter to patience, I'm about five to and GH is a week next Thursday!

[DaveAV1]

22 minutes ago, TRO said:

I read somewhere that other players were doing all the running at Barnsley and CH was taking all the plaudits.....now IF that is the case and the same with Lansbury that could be an explanation for not fixing the midfield.

I am not saying that is the case.....just quoting a mutation.

The midifield still does not look fixed to me......but there are oodles of opinions open for that.

I still have a quiet worry that the 2 CB's look less dominant when Jed is absent.....That concerns me......are they as good as we think they are or as good as the stats suggest, why if we are so dominant in defence do the 2 CB's push us forward like CB's of the past used to do.....and in doing so closing the gaps that the opposition thrive in?

I think there will be some surprising moves in the summer.

Well if that is obvious to fans, it's concerning that those who actually make the signings, whoever they might be, didn't notice themselves. 

[Grasshopper]

5 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

The players who have had the most impact this season, in my opinion of course, are Kodjia, Jedi, Baker, Chester and Hutton, with an honourable mention for Taylor. I was, like many, very excited by the January signings, but Taylor who was probably the least exciting, is the only one who has shown any sort of consistency. 

This concerns me greatly because Hourihane, Lansbury and Hogan were probably the best players at their clubs and had all been having great seasons. I know people will say they need time and there is some truth in that, but they haven't just struggled they've been rubbish. The main reason for this I believe is that we don't play in a way that suits their style of play and so every ga,e they loose a bit more confidence and a bit more form. They all looked pretty decent for the first game or two but they've all gone backwards since then.

I'm concerned that we will never get the best out of them because we will never play a style that suits them. Steve Bruce keeps complaining about performances but continues to set us up negatively what ever formation he picks. The definition of madness is repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Equally worrying with another transfer window on the near horizon, does Steve Bruce have a plan regarding the type of players we need to suit the style he intends to play?

If this ^ is a question. You've answered yourself.

If you have "Football men" making the decisions to buy and sell players and appoint the staff (manager, scouts, coaches.....etc) then surely you

1) look at the player pool you have

2) target players to compliment or replace players.

3) Appoint a manager

Now with those factors in mind, a club (run correctly) would have an idea or blue print of what should crystalise on the pitch.

Obviously, who ever is overall responsible for this, is getting it all wrong. The manager is unable to get the players to play how he wants and the players are not able to respond to the managers system of play.

So the powers that be have either got 1) the wrong players in or 2) The wrong manager for the players we have/bought.

Either way, something is wrong.

My bet is, the Board appointed Bruce in hope rather than design, buying players with design who have no hope with Bruce.

Time to corrrct the F****up before its too late

[Tommo_b]

4 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

@TRO

 

Tro with a stick to beat us with, trying to fight off all the Grasshoppers

Lmao!

[dont_do_it_doug.]

4 hours ago, av1 said:

I read it that way too. 

But just a couple of weeks ago, he said something along the lines of;

'We can't keep having a big turn over of players, there will only be small changes in the summer, 1 or 2 in and a couple more out'

The two comments contradict each other massively. 

 

 

In what way? There are more ways to finish the article than going out and signing a boat load more players. 

I think both Wyness and Bruce have said 2/3 signings in the summer, quality not quantity and both have alluded to clearing the rest of the dead wood. Then, obviously, he needs to work on bringing everything together in pre season. That's still a fair bit of work.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

43 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

Well if that is obvious to fans, it's concerning that those who actually make the signings, whoever they might be, didn't notice themselves. 

Who says they haven't? They did a ton of work in January to correct even Di Matteo's mistakes. 

The question is a simple one for me - do we act like a proper football club and give an experienced manager with a proven track record a pre season and a full summer window to bring it all together, or do we go all half arsed and chuck the baby out with the bathwater? Again. 

I'm sick of the revolving door. Bruce hasn't done a great job, merely an average one. However there is a decent defensive foundation to build on and we've stopped sinking. It's a start. 

[jim]

52 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

Well if that is obvious to fans, it's concerning that those who actually make the signings, whoever they might be, didn't notice themselves. 

They probably didn't even look. Most likely just looked at the stats and said we'll have them.