Steve Bruce

[mykeyb]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

When you look at the players he has to work with, how many are really good enough to consistently perform at a promotion winning level?

I can think of Baker, Chester and Kodjia. 

This squad is still too full of players not up to the task. 

So no Amavi, no Jedinak, no McCormack,  Adomah, Grealish or Elphick. I agree that Hutton, Bacuna, Gardner, Westwood, Gabby aren't good enough and question Tishbola and maybe She's.

That's a big rebuild we cannot do next season while spending big money.

 

[mykeyb]

Sorry Mantis, wasn't implying you did, just trying to add to the discussion, sorry.

[VillaCas]

I feel the need to preface this by stressing that I am in no way suggesting that Bruce's position should be under scrutiny until he has had a chance to bring his own players in. I felt exactly the same about Garde and say what you like about yesterday but Bruce has made a far far better fist of it than Garde did (albeit with much better players and in a much worse league)

HOWEVER, really really not good enough - I'm losing patience with Bruce's "honesty" in the after match interviews. Don't keep telling us, F***in' fix it. 

The Wolves performance was dismal - poor selection and poor tactics. Baffling that he can allow Gestede to leave and to believe that Gabby can fill the gap.  Hutton tried his best and I'm not blaming him but everything broke down when it reached him. Early days but Johnstone doesn't look an upgrade on Gollini, Amavi is going backwards, McCormack looks lost, Bacuna is poor anyway but totally adrift in that position. For me only Chester, Elphick to a degree and maybe Green with a short cameo came out the game with any credit at all.

Bruce had done well at the beginning but just when you imagined that we would start motoring its all falling apart. We knew key players would be leaving for AFCON so why are we halfway through the window with no reinforcments.

I didn't want SB and still don't think he will be the answer. I think we can forget the play-offs this season now -  I predicted a 10th place finish and I think we will be lucky to hit that. His insistance to persevere with Gabby is infuriating - the guy is a total and utter waste of space.

I love Villa but sometimes it's F***in' hard work being a a Villa fan

 

 

[Stevo985]

I want continuous improvement.

Bruce has improved us from Di Matteo.

Now clearly we're in a bit of a rut. The next test is if he can bring us out of that rut and I suspect signing some midfielders who can play football is the first step.

I'm right behind him as I believe he'll push us on again after this set back. I'll grow impatient when it looks like we've stopped improving permanently.

[Xela]

10 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

I love Villa but sometimes it's F***in' hard work being a a Villa fan

It means we will appreciate the good times even more when they come*

 

*if it ever bloody happens

[Woodytom]

20 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

I feel the need to preface this by stressing that I am in no way suggesting that Bruce's position should be under scrutiny until he has had a chance to bring his own players in. I felt exactly the same about Garde and say what you like about yesterday but Bruce has made a far far better fist of it than Garde did (albeit with much better players and in a much worse league)

HOWEVER, really really not good enough - I'm losing patience with Bruce's "honesty" in the after match interviews. Don't keep telling us, F***in' fix it. 

The Wolves performance was dismal - poor selection and poor tactics. Baffling that he can allow Gestede to leave and to believe that Gabby can fill the gap.  Hutton tried his best and I'm not blaming him but everything broke down when it reached him. Early days but Johnstone doesn't look an upgrade on Gollini, Amavi is going backwards, McCormack looks lost, Bacuna is poor anyway but totally adrift in that position. For me only Chester, Elphick to a degree and maybe Green with a short cameo came out the game with any credit at all.

Bruce had done well at the beginning but just when you imagined that we would start motoring its all falling apart. We knew key players would be leaving for AFCON so why are we halfway through the window with no reinforcments.

I didn't want SB and still don't think he will be the answer. I think we can forget the play-offs this season now -  I predicted a 10th place finish and I think we will be lucky to hit that. His insistance to persevere with Gabby is infuriating - the guy is a total and utter waste of space.

I love Villa but sometimes it's F***in' hard work being a a Villa fan

 

 

Exactly where I am.

Good post.

[markavfc40]

26 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

HOWEVER, really really not good enough - I'm losing patience with Bruce's "honesty" in the after match interviews. Don't keep telling us, F***in' fix it. 

 

I think that is the problem though isn't it that he can't fix it without bringing in 3 or 4 new outfield players.

Overall I think Bruce has still done OK. The points ratio from his first 15 games taken over a while season would give 76 points and most likely a top 6 finish.

I am being a bit simplistic there though. Performances have in the main since he has been here been poor. Even games we have won we haven't been convincing. What I would say is we have ground out results and dug in at home. Away from home is the big worry and where he is fair game for criticism. The players have played like they couldn't give a toss in a number of away games and when that happens almost to a man then the manager has to be held responsible for that. He called them out on it at Norwich and two away games later they put in a dire first 45 minutes at Cardiff. Then yesterday another performance lacking effort and desire was dished up. Despite the personnel he inherited and the glaring holes in the squad that isn't good enough.

I am also unsure exactly what he is trying to do at times. For me with the issues we have in midfield until they could have been filled an option would have been to have pretty much by passed it and stuck a big man up top and built play from there. He sold the only person in the squad who could be utilised in that way and yesterday we found ourselves with our front man option being Gabby, McCormack and an 18 year old on the bench. With no creativity in midfield and those options up top what is the plan to score goals? It may not have been pretty but a least with a big lump up top you can get it up to him and something may drop.

I would go as far to say whilst we look solid at the back and he has addressed the tendency to concede late goals attacking play wise we haven't improved one bit under him. The saving grace was with Kodjia around was he could produce something out of nothing but without him we are not a threat going forward and he has to address this.

My worry now is that this season will just peter out resulting in another hangover going into next season. Bruce has to ensure that doesn't happen. This next couple of weeks the club has to bring in 2 or 3 additions, fill the glaring hole in midfield and the manager has to get the players up for every game and come up with a style of playing to make us a threat going forward. No more of this half arsed crap and I want to see us go out as if every game is a cup final. It almost certainly won't lead us into the top 6 by the end of the season but it can instil a mentality meaning we go into next season in a positive frame of mind.

[kurtsimonw]

5 hours ago, Woodytom said:

Nobody said you had made anything up. I think the players are garbage. Massively overated on this site some of them. However, once again I'm watching a villa team not even trying.

Where has the Brighton performance gone? They're garbage but they're not as bad as what I saw last night..... and that's why I'm asking questions of the manager. Not asking for him to be sacked, just that I think he could be doing better despite the crock of shit he's working with. In fact, I know he can... I've seen it with my own eyes v Brighton. 

But that's the thing. You say the players are garbage. Bruce then clearly over-achieved with them with the Brighton performance, so why hold him to that standard all the time? Surely he should be praised for getting rubbish to play like that, rather than criticised when he can't? It'd be like demanding Ranieri is sacked because they aren't in the title race "Well, he did it last year, why can't he now?"

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

32 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I think that is the problem though isn't it that he can't fix it without bringing in 3 or 4 new outfield players.

Overall I think Bruce has still done OK. The points ratio from his first 15 games taken over a while season would give 76 points and most likely a top 6 finish.

I am being a bit simplistic there though. Performances have in the main since he has been here been poor. Even games we have won we haven't been convincing.  

So whilst we need three or four players, his points ratio would still currently be enough to get 76 points. That's a manager doing a solid job with the poor tools at his disposal.

Once we have those three or four players, as long as they're the right signings, you'd expect all the issues you outlined in the rest of your post will get addressed and resolved.

We've got two inconsistent full backs, literally no decent midfielders and our back up forward options are shit. The fans keep suggesting what he should do instead - e.g. start Tish, pack the midfield, play 4-3-3, have RMc with Grealish playing behind - but they amount to minor fixes and they wouldn't address the bigger problems.

For example, we could pack the midfield with Bacuna, Tish, Westwood, Jedinak and Gardner, but they're still woeful, everyone one to a man, and they'd still be passing to the opposition and not providing any creativity or support for the strikers. But then even if they were, we've got two shit strikers to choose from who'd be doing nothing with the ball anyway. 

Bruce is so horridly hindered until he can bring in the three/four players which people keep saying that we need.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[limpid]

1 hour ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

That might have been the case, but it was later used by the press and pundits due to his penchant for getting rid of managers. 

 

In this post-fact world, let's stick to the facts when we know them. The press and pundits also said that we were against McLeish because he was ex-Blues. We also know that's not true, but we correct that where we can.

Anyway, way OT.

[kurtsimonw]

59 minutes ago, VillaCas said:

HOWEVER, really really not good enough - I'm losing patience with Bruce's "honesty" in the after match interviews. Don't keep telling us, F***in' fix it. 

Football isn't like any other job though. When you have a water leak you just bring in a plumber, he'll replace the pipe or patch it up, job done. The pipes and patching in football, unfortunately, are owned by other clubs. Villa want quality, chances are that quality is either 1) one of the best players at a club in this league or 2) in the Premier League. Why would a team in this league want to sell their best player to a rival, and why would a Premier League player want to play in the Championship? 

He's identified Hourihane and Lansbury, who IMO would improve us, the issue is that Barnsley do not want to sell and Forest haven't been able to sell. It's not as simple as saying "fix it". Other clubs are for the most part already fixed, at their level. I do agree selling Gestede mistake was a mistake - but then quite a few on here had said they didn't want to see him in a Villa shirt again, or that he didn't offer anything.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

"Herbert Douglas Ellis, OBE, revels in the sobriquet of "Deadly Doug", first applied by Jimmy Greaves, because of his reputation for sacking his managers"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/jul/21/football.comment?CMP=share_btn_tw

Anyway, that's not the point, and who cares whether it came from angling, managerial sackings or mass murder...he had a reputation for his turnover of managers; it wouldn't even be a thing these days due to it being the norm. And that was my point. People are so impatient these days, as we're seeing in this thread, and it's partly what fuels the more common practice of rapidly hiring and firing managers.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[markavfc40]

19 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

So whilst we need three or four players, his points ratio would be still currently enough to get 76 points. That's a manager doing a solid job with the poor tools at his disposal.

Once we have those three or four players, as long as they're the right signings, you'd expect all the issues you outlined in the rest of your post will get addressed and resolved.

We've got two inconsistent full backs, literally no decent midfielders and our back up forward options are shit. The fans keep suggesting what he should do instead - e.g. start Tish, pack the midfield, play 4-3-3, have RMc with Grealish playing behind - but they amount to minor fixes and they wouldn't address the bigger problems.

For example, we could pack the midfield with Bacuna, Tish, Westwood, Jedinak and Gardner, but they're still woeful, everyone one to a man, and they'd still be passing to the opposition and not providing any creativity or support for the strikers. But then even if they were, we've got two shit strikers to choose from who'd be doing nothing with the ball anyway. 

Bruce is so horridly hindered until he can bring in the three/four players that people keep saying we need.

Mate you will get no argument from me in the fact he is hindered by the fact we have glaring holes in the squad. However that doesn't excuse the fact that some of the crap served up as not just been lacking due to a lack of ability in certain areas but due to a lack of effort and desire as a collective.

Regardless of the issues with the squad it is a better squad than Cardiff. Due to a lack of desire though we got murdered for 45 minutes. Yesterday Wolves were no great shakes and certainly they are no better than us but they seemed to want it more.

I also think whilst we do have the midfield issues he had to try to come up with a different way of playing to get around that. Now whilst defensively we look more solid under him going forward we look clueless even with Kodjia in the side. That is in the main due to a lack of drive and creativity in midfield. With Kodjia away I don't think it was a good idea to also allow Gestede to go. That left us with Gabby, no goals in Christ knows how long, McCormack no goal in 15 games who can't play up top on his own, and a couple of 18 year olds one who won't sign a contract. You throw in no creativity in midfield then for me it wouldn't have been a bad option to have retained Gestede and by passed midfield and lumped it up to him and built from there hoping something would drop. Not pretty but at least it may have been effective. At present we look zero threat going forward.

Bruce can't fairly be judged at the moment due to what he inherited but whilst he can be praised for grinding out enough results to have taken the amount of points we have under him he can also be criticised for the half asked collective performances dished up away from home and not coming up with any kind of solution to our lack of attacking threat when he knew for 3 months we would lose Kodjia.

For what it is worth I think he will get it right here and I think he will make the signings in midfield that will address our lack of attacking threat. In the mean time though he has to ensure we serve up better than the crap that has been served up in the recent away games. Simply acknowledging it isn't enough.

Edited January 15, 2017 by markavfc40

[Woodytom]

25 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

But that's the thing. You say the players are garbage. Bruce then clearly over-achieved with them with the Brighton performance, so why hold him to that standard all the time? Surely he should be praised for getting rubbish to play like that, rather than criticised when he can't? It'd be like demanding Ranieri is sacked because they aren't in the title race "Well, he did it last year, why can't he now?"

I'm not holding him to THAT standard all the time. Just a better standard than what we witnessed last night, but Cardiff, v Wigan, v Leeds, v Norwich etc. 

These players are simply not good enough we know that and so does Bruce so I'm not calling for his head or demanding that he gets us in the playoffs (like some are suggesting). I am however asking why we're not achieving a SOT for example away at wolves....  something that even these platers are more than capable of.

[Woodytom]

11 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Mate you will get no argument from me in the fact he is hindered by the fact we have glaring holes in the squad. However that doesn't excuse the fact that some of the crap served up as not just been lacking due to a lack of ability in certain areas but due to a lack of effort and desire as a collective.

Regardless of the issues with the squad it is a better squad than Cardiff. Due to a lack of desire though we got murdered for 45 minutes. Yesterday Wolves were no great shakes and certainly they are no better than us but they seemed to want it more.

I also think whilst we do have the midfield issues he had to try to come up with a different way of playing to get around that. Now whilst defensively we look more solid under him going forward we look clueless even with Kodjia in the side. That is in the main due to a lack of drive and creativity in midfield. With Kodjia away I don't think it was a good idea to also allow Gestede to go. That left us with Gabby, no goals in Christ knows how long, McCormack no goal in 15 games who can't play up top on his own, and a couple of 18 year olds one who won't sign a contract. You throw in no creativity in midfield then for me it wouldn't have been a bad option to have retained Gestede and by passed midfield and lumped it up to him and built from there hoping something would drop. Not pretty but at least it may have been effective. At present we look zero threat going forward.

Bruce can't fairly be judged at the moment due to what he inherited but whilst he can be praised for grinding out enough results to have taken the amount of points we have under him he can also be criticised for the half asked collective performances dished up away from home and not coming up with any kind of solution to our lack of attacking threat when he knew for 3 months we would lose Kodjia.

For what it is worth I think he will get it right here and I think he will make the signings in midfield that will address our lack of attacking threat. In the mean time though he has to ensure we serve up better than the crap that has been served up in the recent away games. Simply acknowledging it isn't enough.

100% correct. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, terrytini said:

I'm happy Bruce is as likely as anyone to sort us out.

But equally I don't see how he is helping players be consistent by still not having a settled method of playing, not a settled side....by choice, largely,

Players need to know who will be where without thinking, that's harder when personnel and systems change so regularly.

Yes I see sense in changing players who underperform on the one hand, but there is an argument for , by now, knowing your best 11/13 and sticking with them. Then as Manager get the best out of them - those things are surely a managers job.

And, IMO, whatever the system is, it needs to be more positive than we currently are( especially away from home) and play on the front foot more rather than just when chasing.

I accept his view has been to tighten us up and that this would risk some of that.

IMO all this is within the managers control.

I understand your point implicitly Terry, but.....

His prime aim, is points

When you have a bunch whose consistency resembles the UK weather.....its a difficult ask to rely on a settled side.....when he or us don't know what the best side is and I would wager no other manager living would either.

It is always dangerous to unconditionally defend the manager,I know, because he is ultimately responsible, but, I think you may have picked up in his comments to the media that he said " I have no doubt in my mind that I will sort this out, if I'm given the time( implying that its much bigger task than we all think) and we all know its a results business, so we shall see if thats the case.

We have an abattoir full of carcases of disposed managers that have all had a go at this.....all sorts of configurations

We need stability, desperately.

Edited January 15, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, mykeyb said:

So no Amavi, no Jedinak, no McCormack,  Adomah, Grealish or Elphick. I agree that Hutton, Bacuna, Gardner, Westwood, Gabby aren't good enough and question Tishbola and maybe She's.

That's a big rebuild we cannot do next season while spending big money.

 

The first bunch are questionable and may respond positivley to the introduction of players that will contribute to our cause,favorably.

The second lot need to be culled.

[VillaCas]

42 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

So whilst we need three or four players, his points ratio would still currently be enough to get 76 points. That's a manager doing a solid job with the poor tools at his disposal.

76 was the "projected" total before yesterday. Now the "projected" total is 68 - good enough for 10-12th. Two or three more poor performances and it starts to go from a good beginning to a poor one very quickly. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillaCas said:

I feel the need to preface this by stressing that I am in no way suggesting that Bruce's position should be under scrutiny until he has had a chance to bring his own players in. I felt exactly the same about Garde and say what you like about yesterday but Bruce has made a far far better fist of it than Garde did (albeit with much better players and in a much worse league)

HOWEVER, really really not good enough - I'm losing patience with Bruce's "honesty" in the after match interviews. Don't keep telling us, F***in' fix it. 

The Wolves performance was dismal - poor selection and poor tactics. Baffling that he can allow Gestede to leave and to believe that Gabby can fill the gap.  Hutton tried his best and I'm not blaming him but everything broke down when it reached him. Early days but Johnstone doesn't look an upgrade on Gollini, Amavi is going backwards, McCormack looks lost, Bacuna is poor anyway but totally adrift in that position. For me only Chester, Elphick to a degree and maybe Green with a short cameo came out the game with any credit at all.

Bruce had done well at the beginning but just when you imagined that we would start motoring its all falling apart. We knew key players would be leaving for AFCON so why are we halfway through the window with no reinforcments.

I didn't want SB and still don't think he will be the answer. I think we can forget the play-offs this season now -  I predicted a 10th place finish and I think we will be lucky to hit that. His insistance to persevere with Gabby is infuriating - the guy is a total and utter waste of space.

I love Villa but sometimes it's F***in' hard work being a a Villa fan

 

 

Fwiw 

• I don't agree with you about Bruce as you can tell.
• Too early to say with the keeper, but it could be whats in front of ( both) of them...meaning team.....I rate the CB's but not the full backs at present.
• Gabby I agree with 
• Gestede I feel was an Opportunity the club felt they could not pass over.....we have fully amortized too many in recent times
• AFCON has effected us ....just like Benteke leaving.....deprived us of our only source of goals
• Steve Bruce knows whats wrong and for a compendium of reasons can't fix it RIGHT NOW.....He will though.....He needs the personnel to fix it and even then I believe it will be gradual as opposed to spectacular.

Join the band of frustrated souls.....But don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

However, I share your pain.UTV

Edited January 15, 2017 by TRO

[avfcdave]

When he came in he obviously instilled much needed grit and organisation that we were lacking under RDM, but it's now coming at the expense of any attacking movement and creativity. I still feel like we're pretty solid but it's individual mistakes turning 0-0s into defeats. (It says a lot about the standard of this league that no matter how bad we've been we're rarely more than a goal down). The games we have been winning have relied on individuals pulling something out of a hat. Second half at Brighton aside, I never feel like we're knocking on the door under Bruce. 

It's very difficult to get attacking freedom back when your primary focus is discipline and being hard to beat. I wish there were other answers than having to sign new players all the time but it's painfully clear things can only change with better quality midfielders. At least it sounds like Bruce and the club agree. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by avfcdave