Steve Bruce

[Johnnyp]

My view on the whole the players are not good enough thing is ive a problem with our recruitment process which is extremely naive more so than the players per say. I watched barnsley a few times early last season. Bree was terrorising opposing full backs. Hourihane found Winnell with everything he played through.  But they were coached. Tactically set up very well. They had movement and played to a plan. We signed them and shoehorned them into a footballing philosophy borne out of the dark ages. Yes you can't keep sacking managers , you **** appoint the right one.

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, villarocker said:

I tell you what mate, I fear for us if you are right. Basically, if it is mainly down to the players not being good enough, not trying hard enough and, they cannot get that managed into them, then we are royally f?*%£d.

 

We are. I'm expecting a Leeds like situation of several years in this league. 

[srsmithusa]

2 hours ago, Rob182 said:

We know the performances have been poor, or unattractive, because that's what you get from Bruce, but we also haven't been bad enough to warrant a sacking (just yet), in my opinion.

What I have seen with my own eyes, is that (as I mentioned a few posts ago), since October we have been in the play-off positions. That was the bare minimum that Bruce should achieve. We've had decent runs too. Unbeaten in 10 at one stage, when we also won 4 out of 5 games. Unbeaten in 5 a few weeks ago, including three 2-goal wins against QPR, Ipswich and Sunderland, until we lost to Derby. We've had our good spells, even if the crap football has made some people still question whether it's good enough.

Your expectations are far too low.  IMO.  

Beating this horse again.... this IS the villa curse.   Our board, our manager, our players, and even fans tolerate crappy performance.  It’s explained away with excuses.  (He’s played well often lately, we have injuries, they just parked the bus, still bedding into a new role ).  

There’s not enough accountability.   Until that stops, the “curse” will remain.  That’s why letting Bruce continue is making things worse every minute. He’s not producing football or the targeted results, but that is accepted.   ( don’t tell me it’s not accepted, it has been excused and rationalized for months on this forum, and he’s still drawing a pay check. The manager is not held accountable by the board.  The players are not held accountable by the manager.  Rarely, they may be held accountable by themselves, but not transparently.  

Its why changing owner, board, manager, coaches, and roster doesn’t change anything.    There is no accountability for folly, so there is no drive toward excellence. 

[Johnnyp]

My view on the whole the players are not good enough thing is ive a problem with our recruitment process which is extremely naive more so than the players per say. I watched barnsley a few times early last season. Bree was terrorising opposing full backs. Hourihane found Winnell with everything he played through.  But they were coached. Tactically set up very well. They had movement and played to a plan. We signed them and shoehorned them into a footballing philosophy borne out of the dark ages. Yes you can't keep sacking managers , you **** appoint the right one.

[sheepyvillian]

The Sheff Utd manager seems to be doing a fine job ,with limited resources. 

Could be worth a shout .

[Vive_La_Villa]

My mate who is a leeds fan said for several years in this league players couldn't handle playing for Leeds. The expectation was too high and too often they would sign players doing well at other teams that would turn to shit when signed for Leeds.

He said as time went on there was no longer an expectancy of promotion nor was there an expectancy of every player signed to have already done well in this league. 

That is when they've started to show steady progress.

I see something similar happening at Villa. 

[NurembergVillan]

17 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Yes and relative to our league we have literally spent at Man City levels.

This is an easy narrative to default to, but just isn't true.

Since we got relegated Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Norwich, Wolves and Hull have all spent not inconsiderable amounts of money too.

Yes we've spent a chunk more than most Championship clubs (and should be expecting a far better return than we've had so far), but to suggest that we've massively outspent everyone else in the league is something of a misdirection.

[Eastie]

23 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

The Sheff Utd manager seems to be doing a fine job ,with limited resources. 

Could be worth a shout .

Sheff utd is his boyhood club and dream job -  doubt he would leave them for villa 

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, NurembergVillan said:

This is an easy narrative to default to, but just isn't true.

Since we got relegated Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Norwich, Wolves and Hull have all spent not inconsiderable amounts of money too.

Yes we've spent a chunk more than most Championship clubs (and should be expecting a far better return than we've had so far), but to suggest that we've massively outspent everyone else in the league is something of a misdirection.

Plus the majority of it was on 3 strikers who for one reason or another are unlikely to offer much this season! 

[TheStagMan]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

So by this you mean Hogan and Hourihane were good at their previous clubs? 

I don't think any of our other signings were exactly setting the world alight. 

Lansbury, Bree, RDL, All pretty good at their previous clubs. That Terry bloke seems to know what to do with a football as well.

Even McCormack did well at his previous clubs - although I accept for this one the reason for him being sh*t here is debatable (his goals in previous systems cannot be argued).

Elphick was decent at Bournemouth - certainly compared to how he has been here.

Onomah was/is supposed to be one of the brightest talents in the country.

Snodgrass, Whelan, Elmo. Samba - all journeyman Bruce Boys

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, TheStagMan said:

Lansbury, Bree, RDL, All pretty good at their previous clubs. That Terry bloke seems to know what to do with a football as well.

Even McCormack did well at his previous clubs - although I accept for this one the reason for him being sh*t here is debatable (his goals in previous systems cannot be argued).

Elphick was decent at Bournemouth - certainly compared to how he has been here.

Onomah was/is supposed to be one of the brightest talents in the country.

Snodgrass, Whelan, Elmo. Samba - all journeyman Bruce Boys

Lansbury and Bree I didn't see enough at their old clubs. They looked half decent when I did see them.  Nothing special.  Bree never plays so can't really comment on if he good for us.  Poor signing.

RDL had long term injury and since returning looks ok when plays. Agains nothing special and it's about to transform our fortunes.

Terry is a legend but everybody knew it was unlikely he would play all season. 

Elphick has just been out of shape his whole time here. 

Onomah is highly rated youngster but then look at pretty much every team in this league and they all have highly rated loaned players on their books.

So while they should be playing a lot better as team. Lets not think we have world beaters in our team and should be challenging Wolves.

We have a team of players that can challenge for the playoffs. Bruce's recruitment has been average at best. 

 

[Villarocker]

42 minutes ago, Eastie said:

Sheff utd is his boyhood club and dream job -  doubt he would leave them for villa 

Maybe people manage their own boyhood clubs with more passion for the job. Dean Smith anyone?

Bruce's heart is probably closer to Small Heath than Aston!

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

Pointing out some of the players are crap isn’t necessarily an excuse for Bruce, it’s just someone pointing things out how they see subjectively them. 

It’s always an easy criticism to blame coaching for absolutely everything, or saying other teams’ players are only playing well because of coaching.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Players have their own talent, abilities and autonomy in which they have to react at pace in a game that is highly instinctive and extremely fast moving with countless scenarios unfolding over the course of 90 mins. 

Hourihane hasn’t replicated his best form for Barnsely whereas Adomah has produced the best form of his career. Terry has shown his top class pedigree whilst Whelan has been the waste of space I knew we were getting and so on. 

It’s just never that clear cut as....because coaching. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Because we've spent a fortune and have some absolutely excellent individual players.

Bruce gives nothing. All he does is take away by setting the side up so negatively.

That's the main reason I want him gone. I think we'd be better with no manager than with this one.

But it depends what you mean, spent a fortune....I keeping hearing this line rolled out as some kind of mitigation.

on transfer fee''s, wages or both....what exactly?

I don't think we have except for 2 duds in Hogan and McCormack.....thats a debate on its own.

I am not excusing the manager, please get this right, but there are many things against him, I disagree with.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

Pointing out some of the players are crap isn’t necessarily an excuse for Bruce, it’s just someone pointing things out how they see subjectively them. 

It’s always an easy criticism to blame coaching for absolutely everything, or saying other teams’ players are only playing well because of coaching.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Players have their own talent, abilities and autonomy in which they have to react at pace in a game that is highly instinctive and extremely fast moving with countless scenarios unfolding over the course of 90 mins. 

Hourihane hasn’t replicated his best form for Barnsely whereas Adomah has produced the best form of his career. Terry has shown his top class pedigree whilst Whelan has been the waste of space I knew we were getting and so on. 

It’s just never that clear cut as....because coaching. 

I think that is a good post and well worth consideration.

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, villarocker said:

Maybe people manage their own boyhood clubs with more passion for the job. Dean Smith anyone?

Bruce's heart is probably closer to Small Heath than Aston!

I don't subscribe to that at all in any way shape or form.

One of the most passionate players we ever had...Andy Gray was a rangers fan.

He was more passionate about scoring for Villa than, say Gabby.

some of the best players or managers have never had any previous emotional involvement in our club......They possibly build it here.

They are professionals, they have their own reputations to follow.

[Grasshopper]

The way I see it is this.

We NEED promotion this season. If we dont go up we need to change our approach from quick fix to long term growth.

The questions are

1 is Bruce capable of getting us 2nd?

I think no

2 is Bruce capable of 3rd-6th?

Maybe yes (in theory) but I honestly think no.

3 if we get to the playoffs, would we beat 2 of those 3-6th positioned teams?

If they were Burton, Sha or Sunderland I like to think YES

if they come from a pool of Cardiff, Derby, BristolC, SheffU, Boro or Leeds I‘d say NO

4 next season is a new ball game and a long term build would be our best bet. Is Bruce capable of a ling ternm build? 

I‘d say No

5 If its the case, we dont go up, is the present board capable of seeing a long term plan through (ie choosing someone, budgeting accordingly and showing leadership for the club to „go that way“ in support of a manager and making clarity for fans, new players, youth and sponsors to get on board for the long haul)

IMHO

Bruce as manager no (he woukd be sacked for failing anyway)

Wyness as CEO ? - this is my deepest concern.

If Wyness (for example) has the mentality to try something different (indeed Bruce was different to RDM) and go after a different type of new guy then why not? if he‘s stuck in his ways and goes for a Bruce Mkii then he must go too.

All to play for with a change, only the change has to be decisive and along the right lines.

if that means Bruce & Wyness must go, then so be it.

[srsmithusa]

42 minutes ago, Morley_crosses_to_Withe said:

Pointing out some of the players are crap isn’t necessarily an excuse for Bruce, it’s just someone pointing things out how they see subjectively them. 

It’s always an easy criticism to blame coaching for absolutely everything, or saying other teams’ players are only playing well because of coaching.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between.

Players have their own talent, abilities and autonomy in which they have to react at pace in a game that is highly instinctive and extremely fast moving with countless scenarios unfolding over the course of 90 mins. 

Hourihane hasn’t replicated his best form for Barnsely whereas Adomah has produced the best form of his career. Terry has shown his top class pedigree whilst Whelan has been the waste of space I knew we were getting and so on. 

It’s just never that clear cut as....because coaching. 

There is rarely if ever a situation where all blame lies on one party. Certainly not in football.  But it is not the players responsibility to get the best from a coach or manager, it IS coaches and manager’s job to get the best from the players - And to sign players that are good enough, - and can accept coaching and improve - and can implement a plan by following instructions - and implement enough discipline that players who fail to do so are not continuing to let the club down.  

In sum, ongoing, chronic, unchecked failure by players does not excuse or mitigate a manager or coach.  If we excuse the failure of the manager because HIS players aren’t good enough then we need to excuse the players, too.  If we excuse everyone for everything, no-one is ever held accountable.   And that’s how we got in to this mess.  

[peterms]

14 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

5 If its the case, we dont go up, is the present board capable of seeing a long term plan through (ie choosing someone, budgeting accordingly and showing leadership for the club to „go that way“ in support of a manager and making clarity for fans, new players, youth and sponsors to get on board for the long haul)

There is to date no evidence to suggest they are.  The approach up to now has been to bet on a quick fix, and we are in a position where whether we go up or stay down the club will need to change a great deal in respect of staff, players, and approach - but in a setting where it seems we will have a lot less room for manoeuvre financially than a year ago.

[imavillan]

Ultimately its the managers responsibility for everything to do with the footballing side of the club.

He hires his coaches. He hires his assistants. He approves/gives the hierarchy the players he wants to sign. He instructs his back room team on the style he wants them to adopt. He oversees the training. He picks the team. He picks the substitutes. He decides on the tactics. He decides when to make substitutions. 

He makes the decisions. He consults his team for there input and opinions/thoughts and he either agrees or over rides there opinions. He makes the decisions. He is accountable.

This is no different to any manager in the world of business.

For a bad manager people will do just what they have to. For a good manager people will go the extra mile.

So far this season i have seen poor substitutions. Poor tactics. Poor signings. Players being played out of position.

For this and last season the manager is culpable. He and only he is responsible for the football and he is failing. In this situation it is time to go. The only thing in question is will the paymasters see this and do the right thing?