Steve Bruce

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, M_Afro said:

Is anybody else starting to get worried about the growing number of Villans supporting Dean Smith as the heir apparent? Regardless of the past few years of under achieving, Villa is still a massive job. Why risk someone who has only ever managed very small clubs with low expectations? This is what he said after the match:

”Aston Villa are a big football club and the expectations from their supporters are that they win the league,” Smith added. “Ours are to go and compete against these teams and finish in the top six if we can.”

Being manager at Brentford, as he himself accepts, is totally different to being manager at AVFC. If he got the job, he may be brilliant. It is a massive risk however. I think we get into the mindset that any change is welcome and good. That is just not true. We need someone who has taken a big club and moved them forward. Someone used to the pressure of expectation. Someone used to working with highly paid egotistical footballers.

I don’t know who that person is but surely there are people at the club, who get paid lots of money, who should be able to identify a suitable replacement! I too want rid of Bruce. I never wanted him in the first place but we have made so many awful appointments. If Bruce goes, which he definitely should, then the replacement has to be suitable. Why risk someone just because his team has played well against us and he was a boyhood supporter? Most teams have played well against us this season but that is why we want to change the manager more than anything else!

Iv'e been saying this all through this thread. Dean smith would not handle the Villa. He may accept the job if offered, as it would probably be a million pound salary, but he would be making a  decision which would probably destroy his career.  A good coach he may be, a manager of a huge club fighting for promotion, well he is not in that league just yet.

[slowandlow]

Every good run of form has quickly descended into a piss poor run, which is no surprise to me given the awful unsustainable style of football we play

[Rob182]

49 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

What if he gets those 4 points and then has another run without winning a game? Do you then want another 4 points to keep you happy again?

For me, if it's reached a point where there is a specific target over the next 2 games then it's reached the point where he has failed. Either he is the man capable of meeting targets set for him or he isn't. 

Don't really get what 2 games will do. 

If he gets those 4 points then we’ll probably be back in the play-off places. Which, if we are, Bruce then has to keep us in those places and aim to get upto 2nd. It’s not a case of getting ‘another 4 points to keep me happy’, it’s a case of sticking with Bruce while he has us in the play-off places, because the gamble of hiring a new manager could backfire.

 

[sidcow]

23 hours ago, TheStagMan said:

I could possibly believe that there was something going on behind the scenes if it wasn't for the following:

• We have replaced the Owner, the board, the manager, most of the first team, the youth team coaches and many others at the club. The only consistently present people are Gabby and Doris the tea lady. Much as I would like to blame Gabby, it would be ridiculous, which just leaves Doris putting wacky baccy in the tea.
• Villa park is not cursed or haunted.
• John Terry would not put up with players not pulling their weight or some sort of backroom drivers (unless it is him, but it has been going on far longer than he has been here)
• EXACTLY the same problems have arisen at every club Bruce has managed. See the infamous Sunderland article from 5 years ago. 

 

 

The problems are crystal clear:

• No defined game plan or style
• Over reliance on one or two good players to paper over the cracks
• A lack of tactical nouse
• Over reliance on a defensive game with lump it up front tactics
• Players bought with little thought of how to fit them into a style
• Defence first and foremost, no plan B, backs to the wall lads
• Other teams will come at us for a scalp and WILL raise their game to the point where us having better individual players is not sufficient, hence all of the above comes into sharp focus

ALL of this comes down to the fault of the manager. If the players are not performing or making stupid mistakes, they should be benched and have extra training to eradicate mistakes from their game play. If they do not improve, they should be replaced. This is not a Sunday league team (although we do play like one) - these are professional footballers who are some of the best in the division. They look lost. That comes from a lack of clear instruction and a defined game plan. Brentford had one, we did not. For the umpteenth time this season.

This is so bang on and I think the most important point is about other teams raising their game against us.  

I like many others supported the Bruce appointment because he had got so many promotions, but none of the clubs he has promoted before would have the rest of the league chafing at the bit to get right into them and be desperate to beat them, see them as a scalp. 

I am sure anyone playing against us gives 110%, tries that little bit harder, are so much more determined so his usual tricks just don't work. 

[AvfcRigo82]

42 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Well that's where I don't agree. I think we are an average Championship team and our league place is justified. At the very least You can't get promoted without a striker that can score goals. We haven't even got that. 

Please do not mention Hogan because lets face it he's shit.

Also where are these summer funds going to come from? 

No top manager would touch this shit with a barge pole.

Loans are available.

I have said all season Hogan is shit and agree with you on that one.

The summer funds will come from the man running the club, ideally promotion and tv deals etc.

Some decent manager will do it as it is not that bad a job surely?

[Michael118]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

They also need motivation just like they need coaching.

The better players are self motivated to a large degree, but other with fragile belief do.

What confuses me is how they can play ok against some sides.......If it was a third parties failure like manager or coaches......surely they would be **** in EVERY game.

Look, Terry you and all the others could be right....Manager no good.....I just think there are more questions than answers.

However, I do get the impression and its only and impression ,because I don't know......There is no one on one coaching like Pepe does to improve individuals.....well its not working if there is.

I still have empathy with the line that many of the players are overrated.

I think people misunderstand how significant motivation is in sport. Even the most self motivated athlete can get a huge benefit from a manager who understands motivation and can build morale in a team in a way which breeds success compared with a manager who isn't aware or isnt able to apply that understanding. Two managers could have the same tactics and would achieve 2 completely different results depending on their delivery. It's about being able to connect with the players on a deeper level as well as the power of belief and being able to get others to believe in themselves. Everyone has unlimited potential. If you can put others on a path to seeing that in themselves it can be pretty powerful.

A good motivational manager vs a poor one is the difference between Leicester under Ranieri and us under Lambert. Champions versus relegation.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Michael118

[sidcow]

20 hours ago, villalad21 said:

I'm tired of having to rebuild every 3 years. We need consistancy at this football club we can't keep changing managers every single year, we're becoming a laughing stock.

We don't need a rebuild, we just need a new manager. 

[Mark Albrighton]

I don’t see us getting 4+ points from the next two games but equally my gut feeling is he’ll still be here by the time the cup game comes around.

[srsmithusa]

4 hours ago, Rob182 said:

So when would you have sacked Bruce then?

 

(If you’d read all my posts, and the conversation that lead to the post of mine that you quoted, you’ll see that I mentioned, numerous times, that Bruce is underachieving and that the aim at the start of the season was automatic promotion).

Sorry to be slower than you expected replying.  Saw you had tweaked my in another page or so.  Took my granddaughter to see a movie.  Your expectations of my performance are high though, well done

i agree he’s underachieving.  But you also said you wouldn’t get rid yet.   That’s why I think your expectations are too low. 

Your other question..... I think I first said Bruce out in February.  But with some regret I will admit I backed off of that during our “good spell” this fall. 

[sidcow]

8 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

So by this you mean Hogan and Hourihane were good at their previous clubs? 

I don't think any of our other signings were exactly setting the world alight. 

Whelan player of the year many times voted by the fans. 

Snodgrass promoted before important part of a winning team. 

Adomah promoted before important part of a winning team.

Lansbury best stats in the league and my Forest supporting mate was gutted he left, easily their best player. 

Elmohamady promoted before important part of a winning team. 

Elphick promoted before important part of a winning team. 

Neil Taylor many adequate performances in The Premier League which is light years ahead of where we are. 

Jack Grealish in a previous Aston Villa teams has shaken Liverpool at Wembley and made Everton players look like children. 

I have heard rumours that John Terry looked a decent Premier League quality defender. 

Shall I go on? 

In addition to the 2 you have already mentioned we have always got at least 11 players which every team in this league would look at enviously. 

Bruce without any question or doubt has the tools to get automatic promotion from this league regardless of expectation or blips. 

The only question remaining is why these talented people look so bloody awful week in week out and look highly likely to lose everytime they take the field and even when they have manged to win with reasonable frequency it's been on a wing and a prayer. 

It never looked likely to take much to turn our wins into draws and our draws into defeats and so it has turned out. 

The manager is the problem not the players. 

[fightoffyour]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Iv'e been saying this all through this thread. Dean smith would not handle the Villa. He may accept the job if offered, as it would probably be a million pound salary, but he would be making a  decision which would probably destroy his career.  A good coach he may be, a manager of a huge club fighting for promotion, well he is not in that league just yet.

When will he be in that league though? If he gets Brentford into the top 6? If so, what if they then got promoted? It would be too late to get him as he would be already out of our league. I’m afraid we have to take a risk to get a manager on the way up. We’ve tried an old head and that hasn’t worked though so I’d rather take a risk.

[sidcow]

All this talk about systems and plans (we do have one, The Villa Engine) are in my mind just so much bullshit. It's just corporate bullshit anyone who has worked in a medium or large company would have heard. 

At the end of the day its down to this. 

Some managers are great for some clubs and are turgid at others. 

Some players are great for some clubs and turgid for others. 

Swansea are a club held up for their system and now they are bottom. Southampton are the ultimate idol to worship for this but are currently struggling somewhat and I guarantee they will get relegated in a few years. 

Talk of systems and philosophy sounds great and modern but at the end of the day 99% of the time the biggest teams with the largest budgets perform the best because they have the best players and the best managers. 

Things flux and you get smaller clubs with lower budgets where things just click and then you get the 100 year flood that is Leicester or big clubs get relegated. 

 We are the biggest club in this league by a country mile with the biggest budget. If we are struggling for automatic promotion let alone top 6 there is something badly wrong with the playing management for which there is no excuse. 

[sidcow]

15 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Iv'e been saying this all through this thread. Dean smith would not handle the Villa. He may accept the job if offered, as it would probably be a million pound salary, but he would be making a  decision which would probably destroy his career.  A good coach he may be, a manager of a huge club fighting for promotion, well he is not in that league just yet.

How big were Manchester United compared to Aberdeen?

You never ever know how a manger will cope

  Should we only appoint a manager who has managed a bigger club than us? If so it will be a sacked manager. I would rather steal a successful manager from a smaller club than appoint a sacked manager from a bigger club. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by sidcow

[sne]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

How big were Manchester United compared to Aberdeen?

You never ever now how a manger will cope

  Should we only appoint a manager who has managed a bigger club than us? If so it will be a sacked manager. I would rather steal a successful manager from a smaller club than appointed a sacked manager from a bigger club. 

Think the best and easiest way is to let Sir Alex Ferguson tell us who to appoint.

What can possibly go wrong?

[AvfcRigo82]

I agree with many of your posts above @sidcow and highlights for me some of the underlying problems that still remain at this club.

It does not help whilst also worrying when majority of fans expectations seem to have now slowly and gradually dipped, piss poor management and displays are slowly being acceptable and peppered against any critiscm in some instances and to a point where many believe Dean Smith is now our answer.      Worrying.

I just hope our chairman and co. can see through this and have our actual sights set a little higher.  

[AvfcRigo82]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

But it depends what you mean, spent a fortune....I keeping hearing this line rolled out as some kind of mitigation.

on transfer fee''s, wages or both....what exactly?

I don't think we have except for 2 duds in Hogan and McCormack.....thats a debate on its own.

I am not excusing the manager, please get this right, but there are many things against him, I disagree with.

It is not a line rolled out, but have a look for yourself TRO. Aston Villa transfers in 16/17  and 17/18..  and that just being transfer fee's. - We won't include things like signing on fee's, wages or bonuses into debates it appears - if we do the figure will not make for pretty reading considering the shit we are served is supposed to be acceptable?

Anyone else spending that amount in this league with the right manager it's fair to say would be where Wolves are at the minute as expected.

Even the players we have right now could be in the same position - under the right manager.

Out of interest what things against Steve Bruce do you not agree with?  Surely there cannot be many?

[Villarocker]

21 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

I agree with many of your posts above @sidcow and highlights for me some of the underlying problems that still remain at this club.

It does not help whilst also worrying when majority of fans expectations seem to have now slowly and gradually dipped, piss poor management and displays are slowly being acceptable and peppered against any critiscm in some instances and to a point where many believe Dean Smith is now our answer.      Worrying.

I just hope our chairman and co. can see through this and have our actual sights set a little higher.  

When Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche first started plying their trades I bet there wouldn't have been many in our position fighting to sign them up but they haven't turned out too bad. 

[Rob182]

7 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Sorry to be slower than you expected replying.  Saw you had tweaked my in another page or so.  Took my granddaughter to see a movie.  Your expectations of my performance are high though, well done

i agree he’s underachieving.  But you also said you wouldn’t get rid yet.   That’s why I think your expectations are too low. 

Your other question..... I think I first said Bruce out in February.  But with some regret I will admit I backed off of that during our “good spell” this fall. 

Haha no worries, I just saw you replying to someone else after I'd tagged you, so thought you might have missed it  I hope your granddaughter enjoyed the movie! 

 

So if you backed off from the Bruce Out stance following our good spell, when have you officially moved back into the Bruce Out stance now? That's what I'm interested in. Was it the last loss that pushed you back into the 'Bruce Out' camp, or was it the loss before that against Derby?

 

The reason I ask, is that I haven't been 100% Bruce In for his time here, and I'll explain why. Like a lot of people, I too thought 'this isn't good enough' when we had that dreadful spell last February, but I felt that pulling the trigger then was a bit too soon, considering that Bruce hadn't had a pre-season and had only had the January window (which is notoriously difficult to do business in, and aside from Hogan, many of our signings were cheap). Then we had our poor start to THIS season. But, again, from what I would consider to be a 'level-headed' view, it didn't seem right to sack him 2 months into the new season, after giving him another transfer window and a pre-season of training. Of course, we could have sacked him and a new manager could have improved us massively - OR - a new manager could have had the same problems that Bruce did last year, and once again we would be looking to the next season, when the new man could have a pre-season and a summer transfer window.

 

In November when we had won 9 out of the last 12 Championship games, it seemed like it was the right decision to keep Bruce, as we had climbed into a healthy position and were definitely looking up instead of down. It's only since the draw against Leeds that we've done terribly. Before that, I'd say we've been 'below average', but still managing to scrape wins and slowly climb up the table. I'm at the point now, where if we don't get back up into the play-off places quickly (ie: in the next two games), then I'll want him gone. Not because play-offs is acceptable, but because by gambling with a change of manager, we could go backwards, and I think that Bruce does have the knack of pulling out a run of wins from no-where.

 

I had a look at Hull's results in the 2015/16 season that Bruce got them promoted. They had a much better start to the season than we've had this year, but then after that, there are definite similarities in the form. Bruce had a couple of bad spells with them too, losing 4 out of 7 between gameweeks 18-24, before winning 4 on the bounce. Then again, another poor spell from gameweeks 33-40: DLDDLWLD. Yet they still finished in the play-off places and got promoted. While he still has a chance of getting us up (by which, I mean that we're sat safely in the play-off places), I'll (reluctantly) hold off calling for his head.

[DCJonah]

9 hours ago, Rob182 said:

If he gets those 4 points then we’ll probably be back in the play-off places. Which, if we are, Bruce then has to keep us in those places and aim to get upto 2nd. It’s not a case of getting ‘another 4 points to keep me happy’, it’s a case of sticking with Bruce while he has us in the play-off places, because the gamble of hiring a new manager could backfire.

 

What if those 4 points don't get us back in?

What if we get back in and then drop out a few games later? Does he get another chance to try and get back in the playoff spots?

Like i said, either he is the right man to meet his targets or he isn't. For me, even if we returned to the top 6 after the next 2 i don't have faith in his ability to promote us this season.

 

[AvfcRigo82]

Just now, villarocker said:

When Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche first started plying their trades I bet there wouldn't have been many in our position fighting to sign them up but they haven't turned out too bad. 

Not too bad but it has taken them years on shoe string budgets.

We need out of this league this season or we could be stuck here for a long time.

The expectations at this club would also not allow Dyche or the Howes the time they would need to do the same thing here like they have had time to do at other clubs.