UKIP/Reform NF Ltd and their non-racist well informed supporters

[jon_c]

37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

They are panto villains made horribly real. Fox hunting anyone? Go home vans? Money tree?

 

I fairness if they stopped hiding the existing of that magic money tree, and gave the public access. Inflation would go absolutely crazy, and no-one would be able to buy anything with grown money, or earned. 

[meregreen]

50 minutes ago, jon_c said:

I fairness if they stopped hiding the existing of that magic money tree, and gave the public access. Inflation would go absolutely crazy, and no-one would be able to buy anything with grown money, or earned. 

Think of money as a pie. It's not that there's a shortage of that pie. We are one of the wealthiest country's on earth. It's about how that pie is shared. Northern Ireland just had its share of that pie increased. When Politicians say there's no money to pay for things, I call bullshit. 

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Yep, pretty much the same here.

The majority of good things we have, came at the price of previous generations of working class people standing up against the tories or the bosses. I unions aren't universally popular anymore, but they brought us enhanced wages, job protection, reduced discrimination and better health and safety. Not a perfect 100% record of glory, but we are where we are because of them and don't let anyone fool you otherwise. No unions, and most of us would still basically be serfs. It's no coincidence the unions are weaker and the gig economy is rising.

The NHS, built to give free healthcare to the poorest at a time the nation was economically wrecked. Can you imagine the seven shades of crazy that the tories and the media would paint a Labour leader today that came out with such a vast and expensive project during 'austerity'.

On a sweeping macro level, I've seen the violent spiteful way people are treated when the tories are given too much power. On a micro level, I know my local tory MP is a landlord and voted against Landlord's having to carry out mandatory fire safety tests on their properties.

They are panto villains made horribly real. Fox hunting anyone? Go home vans? Money tree?

I won't be giving them my vote this side of a frozen hell.

And I think that many people feel the same as you should be quite worrying for the Tories. They've turned the Xennials and Millennials off them all while trying to detoxify. I guess Tories can't help being Tories.

[markavfc40]

9 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Hope you don't mind me asking but you use the social conscience line a lot , do you genuinely believe it ? Do you think everything is really that black and white and people's  actions come down to where they put an X every few years ....

@mjmooney and @chrisp65 have pretty much answered this for me but yes I do.

Of course I believe people can also do other things like give to charity, help out at foodbanks, go out and give a homeless person a meal and a blanket etc. As an individual though most of us can’t impact on a persons life as much as governments can.

I can twist this around and say that I can’t see how anyone who votes Tory has much of a social conscience. How could you knowingly stick an X next to one of their candidates knowing what they have done and what they intend to do. Knowing how they have continually demonised and taken from those most vulnerable in our society be they disabled, old and frail, out of work or working poor. Knowing how they are wilfully destroying our NHS and setting it up to fail, knowing how they have massively underfunded social care meaning we have those reliant on it stuck on hospital wards or abandoned in their own homes, knowing how they are underfunding education, knowing how they have left us with a lack of Police officers and firemen, knowing they are doing nothing to address the huge lack of social housing, knowing how they voted down proposed legislation requiring private landlords to make their homes fit for human habitation, and now knowing how they failed to act upon recommendations to change fire regulations in relation to tower blocks.

I genuinely don’t know how anyone can vote Tory other than thinking they will be a few pennies better off every week. I know I almost certainly am under them but at what cost. I am not beyond being selfish so what about if me or mine become ill, me or mine become old and frail and reliant upon social care, I lose my job and become reliant upon the safety net of the state. Life has to be about more than me and mine though doesn’t it and that is where the social conscience comes in, in that you are concerned about the elderly person living alone down the road, the disabled guy who has had his benefits cut, the young family who can’t get on the housing ladder and have no social housing options so are paying extortionate rents to live in a damp ridden dump, our future nurses who are having to pay 9k a year to train,  whilst doing so work 40 hours a week on a ward, to get a job with a starting salary of 21k, the millions of children living in poverty, the homeless people. The list is endless in fairness so much so I genuinely struggle to sleep at night thinking about those people so Christ knows how someone who by voting Tory actively encourage it all sleep.

Edited June 28, 2017 by markavfc40

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

39 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

@mjmooney and @chrisp65 have pretty much answered this for me but yes I do.

Of course I believe people can also do other things like give to charity, help out at foodbanks, go out and give a homeless person a meal and a blanket etc. As an individual though most of us can’t impact on a persons life as much as governments can.

I can twist this around and say that I can’t see how anyone who votes Tory has much of a social conscience. How could you knowingly stick an X next to one of their candidates knowing what they have done and what they intend to do. Knowing how they have continually demonised and taken from those most vulnerable in our society be they disabled, old and frail, out of work or working poor. Knowing how they are wilfully destroying our NHS and setting it up to fail, knowing how they have massively underfunded social care meaning we have those reliant on it stuck on hospital wards or abandoned in their own homes, knowing how they are underfunding education, knowing how they have left us with a lack of Police officers and firemen, knowing they are doing nothing to address the huge lack of social housing, knowing how they voted down proposed legislation requiring private landlords to make their homes fit for human habitation, and now knowing how they failed to act upon recommendations to change fire regulations in relation to tower blocks.

I genuinely don’t know how anyone can vote Tory other than thinking they will be a few pennies better off every week. I know I almost certainly am under them but at what cost. I am not beyond being selfish so what about if me or mine become ill, me or mine become old and frail and reliant upon social care, I lose my job and become reliant upon the safety net of the state. Life has to be about more than me and mine though doesn’t it and that is where the social conscience comes in, in that you are concerned about the elderly person living alone down the road, the disabled guy who has had his benefits cut, the young family who can’t get on the housing ladder and have no social housing options so are paying extortionate rents to live in a damp ridden dump, our future nurses who are having to pay 9k a year to train,  whilst doing so work 40 hours a week on a ward, to get a job with a starting salary of 21k, the millions of children living in poverty, the homeless people. The list is endless in fairness so much so I genuinely struggle to sleep at night thinking about those people so Christ knows how someone who by voting Tory actively encourage it all sleep.

Until Corbyn came in I felt exactly the same about Labour. But then I also had direct voluntary experience with Labour councils, councillors and MP's as well as Conservative ones and the difference in competence was huge. (just in case you weren't sure, Labour were the villains over and over again, they literally didn't give a **** (not a swear word) about people and the work our projects did)

How could anyone vote for a party which did everything the Conservatives did but didn't tell you how poorly they were managing it or how badly you'd be stung when it all fell apart? Now things are different and there is a choice (sort of, the PLP are still useless) but since 2001, anyone being anti-Conservative but voting Labour probably didn't look at the overall picture and was too entrenched in hate.

I always voted for the best local candidate because I saw how policy was made and noticed how infrequently my elected MP's would either vote or speak in parliament. Of course how they voted was important but not as important as why they chose to vote that way....though few people bother to think/ask about that.

People honestly think if they vote for X,Y and Z and not this party that it will make a difference, well sadly that's bullplop. The only way to get change is to vote in good people who are willing to fight for policy and their community. I'd take a rebel over a lazy career politician any day of the week!

Edited June 28, 2017 by itdoesntmatterwhatthissay

[markavfc40]

3 hours ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said:

People honestly think if they vote for X,Y and Z and not this party that it will make a difference, well sadly that's bullplop. The only way to get change is to vote in good people who are willing to fight for policy and their community. I'd take a rebel over a lazy career politician any day of the week!

Of course you will find good and bad individuals in all parties but looking at overall actions/statistics under the Tories you will find a huge increase in children living in poverty, a huge increase in disabled people taking their own lives due to cuts to benefits, a huge increase in working poor, a huge increase in those reliant on food banks, a failure over the last seven years to address the issues in social housing, the fact they opposed legislation in regard to ensuring private landlords make their homes fit for human habitation, a huge increase in elderly people blocking beds on hospital wards or being left vulnerable and abandoned in their own homes due to a lack of social care provision. Increases in hospital and GP waiting times including huge problems in A and E, reductions in Police officers and firefighters leading to failings in community policing and fire prevention. The list is endless.

Just as a general observation we have seen a divide in the country over the last seven years that the Government has failed to address and has in fact actively encouraged. The pointing the finger at and demonising those on benefits, the pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner for all our woes. The Tories are poison.

Edited June 28, 2017 by markavfc40

[bickster]

Erm there's a topic for the Nasty Party, stick to the Really Nasty Party in here please

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

Of course you will find good and bad individuals in all parties but looking at overall actions/statistics under the Tories you will find a huge increase in children living in poverty, a huge increase in disabled people taking their own lives due to cuts to benefits, a huge increase in working poor, a huge increase in those reliant on food banks, a failure over the last seven years to address the issues in social housing, the fact they opposed legislation in regard to ensuring private landlords make their homes fit for human habitation, a huge increase in elderly people blocking beds on hospital wards or being left vulnerable and abandoned in their own homes due to a lack of social care provision. Increases in hospital and GP waiting times including huge problems in A and E, reductions in Police officers and firefighters leading to failings in community policing and fire prevention. The list is endless.

Just as a general observation we have seen a divide in the country over the last seven years that the Government has failed to address and has in fact actively encouraged. The pointing the finger at and demonising those on benefits, the pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner for all our woes. The Tories are poison.

The rise of UKIP can very much be attributed to Labour's failures and so you are correct that many terrible things have and continue to occur under the Conservatives, but I don't think you are giving Blair/Brown and all the other career politicians that remain in their positions equal weight in criticism. Unless you're happy with a million dead in Iraq, many no shows in votes and inquiry after inquiry (look at Hillsborough) swept under the carpet. This is also particularity true of devolved powers where local councils from both political sides have been letting down our communities for decades. Funnily enough, when elected, UKIP do pretty well in local politics. 

Both lists of failures are endless, which is my entire point. By being so divisive we have done our society and nation a disservice, and again, the rise of UKIP is a perfect example of that. Yet nobody talks about why we end up with these one-policy groups, just that we must get rid of them......well that certainly worked for the EU referendum.

I worked in many of the industries/sectors you have drawn attention to and to be honest the cuts didn't cause the biggest problems, not to us guys on the front line, it was the stupid decisions of parties playing politics with regulation and policy which in many cases moved funding away from the front line, plus lower wages and higher rents. (Remember, the cost of housing rose the most under Labour, not the Conservatives...but for me that's just another unhelpful stat when taken in isolation....)

Those policy/regulatory decisions created the real cuts, this time administered by the private sector, because New Labour (like the Conservatives) were obsessed with privatisation.
In benefits that was a disaster but Labour kept chucking money at it until the Conservatives rightly (but too harshly) changed the process. And not even that much! Most of what you see today is New Labour structure, which is why it keeps failing.

eg - When supporting people back into work for a private company (govt contract) I had £6k client spend (retained by the private company if not all used up), could earn £1000+ after the first appointment (we were meant to see 13 people a day), I was discouraged from working with the hardest to help (my contract was 'Helping the Hardest to Help'), and earned around 30% more than my JobCentrePlus partners. We even had psychologists that weren't allowed to do complex work.
Our company was so inefficient that Scotland tried to get rid but Labour allowed them to rebrand and win bigger contracts. It was such a poorly administered programme that even Birmingham City Council (biggest council in Europe) was too small to bid for the contract!

New Labour were just as poisonous because they too often relied on ignorance as a method of governance. You can call the 'Tories poison' if you like but there are many good individuals in all parties (as you say) and it's important they rise to the top or the bad ones learn from their mistakes.....judging from both cabinets I think it's safe to say that at the moment it's career politics as usual....apart from one man, who only got his chance because of a joke nomination.

[tonyh29]

13 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

@mjmooney and @chrisp65 have pretty much answered this for me but yes I do.

Of course I believe people can also do other things like give to charity, help out at foodbanks, go out and give a homeless person a meal and a blanket etc. As an individual though most of us can’t impact on a persons life as much as governments can.

I can twist this around and say that I can’t see how anyone who votes Tory has much of a social conscience. How could you knowingly stick an X next to one of their candidates knowing what they have done and what they intend to do. Knowing how they have continually demonised and taken from those most vulnerable in our society be they disabled, old and frail, out of work or working poor. Knowing how they are wilfully destroying our NHS and setting it up to fail, knowing how they have massively underfunded social care meaning we have those reliant on it stuck on hospital wards or abandoned in their own homes, knowing how they are underfunding education, knowing how they have left us with a lack of Police officers and firemen, knowing they are doing nothing to address the huge lack of social housing, knowing how they voted down proposed legislation requiring private landlords to make their homes fit for human habitation, and now knowing how they failed to act upon recommendations to change fire regulations in relation to tower blocks.

I genuinely don’t know how anyone can vote Tory other than thinking they will be a few pennies better off every week. I know I almost certainly am under them but at what cost. I am not beyond being selfish so what about if me or mine become ill, me or mine become old and frail and reliant upon social care, I lose my job and become reliant upon the safety net of the state. Life has to be about more than me and mine though doesn’t it and that is where the social conscience comes in, in that you are concerned about the elderly person living alone down the road, the disabled guy who has had his benefits cut, the young family who can’t get on the housing ladder and have no social housing options so are paying extortionate rents to live in a damp ridden dump, our future nurses who are having to pay 9k a year to train,  whilst doing so work 40 hours a week on a ward, to get a job with a starting salary of 21k, the millions of children living in poverty, the homeless people. The list is endless in fairness so much so I genuinely struggle to sleep at night thinking about those people so Christ knows how someone who by voting Tory actively encourage it all sleep.

There is a lot there a don't agree with you on but I've been on the road since 6 this morning and just got in and won't do any reply justice ... but i appreciate the reply and your opinions... (and the others that replied )

Edited June 28, 2017 by tonyh29

[Genie]

Just watched a video on Facebook, Celtic fan on the pavement covered in blood having had a disagreement with a baseball bat after their game with Sunderland, Tommy Robinson wearing a Rangers shirt goading him and the other Celtic fans milling around. What a piece of shit that man is.

I bet he was hiding away until the police turned up. 

 

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

Just watched a video on Facebook, Celtic fan on the pavement covered in blood having had a disagreement with a baseball bat after their game with Sunderland, Tommy Robinson wearing a Rangers shirt goading him and the other Celtic fans milling around. What a piece of shit that man is.

I bet he was hiding away until the police turned up. 

 

The bloke is pure scum simple as that. It is quite disturbing though how many people seem to look up to him as some sort of messiah.

[Genie]

28 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

The bloke is pure scum simple as that. It is quite disturbing though how many people seem to look up to him as some sort of messiah.

It's a sign of the times, just look at the US. There are so many people now at the lower end of the intelligence scale that lap it up.

He posted a video this evening saying he didn't make this a Rangers versus Celtic thing (wearing the Rangers shirt he wore in the city where Celtic were playing another team) it was everyone else... 

He really does need taking down several pegs. 

[markavfc40]

@Genie He always claims it was someone else's fault and plays the victim card. In interviews he goes out of his way to deny it but his actions show he is nothing more than a racist, xenophobic, gutless prick.

[Genie]

Just watched a video of the incident, TR holed up in a newsagents in the roughest part of Sunderland with Union Jack flags outside wearing a Rangers shirt.

Obviously that's a red rag to a bull and Celtic fans arrive and toss in some fireworks. A load of locals appear and one of them smashes a Celtic fan round the head with a bat.

Clearly, the incident is nothing to do with Tommy himself.

What a piece of shit, what a toxic mix of him and the old firm.

[NurembergVillan]

Says it all that he was doing a book signing session in an off licence.

He's an absolute pipe.

[HanoiVillan]

I kind of hate saying this, but this probably shouldn't be in the UKIP thread. 

[Genie]

So much hate in 1 picture.

[bickster]

Nigel the Nazi is off on one again. It's not remotely subtle these days... it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to get back to 1930's Germany with him these days

Quote

JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

Trump ally and Brexit leader Nigel Farage says there’s something Americans should worry about more than Russian meddling: Jews.

Farage in a Monday interview singled out the so-called “Jewish lobby” as an overwhelming power in America during a discussion about Russia’s interference in U.S. politics.

“There are other very powerful lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices,” Farage said on his London-based radio show.

 

He turned the conversation to Jewish lobbies after a caller had suggested the pro-Israel lobby was as dangerous to the U.S. as the Kremlin.

“That’s a reasonable point,” Farage told the caller.

“There are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big.”

Farage's remarks perpetuate popular and false narratives about a singular “Jewish lobby” operating within the United States and American Jews uniformly lobbying on behalf of Israel.

Jewish civil rights groups immediately condemned his comments.

“Nigel Farage’s comments about the role of a powerful ‘Jewish lobby’ in America plays into deep-seated anti-Semitic tropes about supposed Jewish control of government,” Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan A. Greenblatt told Newsweek. “This is fuel for white supremacists who exploit and spread conspiracy theories about ‘evil, controlling Jews.’”

Conflating a Jewish and Israeli lobby is not only conspiratorial and false, said Greenblatt, but could “have the unintended consequence of encouraging anti-Semites and extremists to exploit them.”

The largest pro-Israel lobbying group in the United States is Christians United for Israel, which has a large Evangelical base and more than 1 million members overall. Opinion polls show the majority of Americans hold favorable views of Israel. 

Farage befriended Donald Trump; the two ran similar populist campaigns in their respective countries last year. Farage was instrumental in promoting the successful Brexit vote, which largely relied on a blue-collar, working class base similar to Trump’s American supporters. Both campaigns catered heavily to anti-immigrant and xenophobic resentments. 

Farage also has close ties with former Trump campaign manager and strategist Steve Bannon, who now runs Breitbart News.

Trump has also been accused of courting anti-Semitic support, starting when his campaign did little to wave off endorsements from neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups. This year, Trump has raised skepticism about an increase in hate crimes against Jews since his election, and he initially refused to condemn the neo-Nazis who marched at a violent Charlottesville, Virginia, hate rally. Memes from anti-Semitic accounts have also repeatedly ended up in his Twitter feed. 

Trump has repeatedly denied all accusations of anti-Semitism.

Newsweek

5

 

[Rugeley Villa]

I'm not sticking up for him, although I don't see him as much of a problem tbf, but to label him a nazi is a bit strong, surely?  I mean let's be honest, there is a few in the Labour Party with anti Jew views. I think it's fair to say though that the Jews have had influence in America over the years and other parts of the world. I'm not saying it's a problem, it's just common knowledge isn't it?  Jews today, then Muslims tomorrow, it's all the same. 

[Seat68]

He says that america should worry about the jews. Thats pretty worrying.