ml1dch Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Most leave voters wouldn't have had a clue what 'no deal' was and it's implications/ impacts. Most of them still don't. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? Throughout the leave campaign(s) we were constantly told, over and over, that it wouldn’t be No deal. We’d get a great deal. It would be the easiest deal in the world etc etc so no. I would say basically everyone who voted leave didn’t think they were getting no deal. And most of the people who say they WERE voting for no deal are lying. And words removed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Most leave voters wouldn't have had a clue what 'no deal' was and it's implications/ impacts. Agreed - I don't think many people at all knew, not just applicable to leave voters. Just everyone. I certainly didn't and voted "remain" because I don't like uncertainty and didn't want to just leave for the hell of it. 3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: Just really, really wrong. Why? We cast opinions on parties at points of election. It's the same thing. You assess the pros and cons and make a decision. The obvious con to "leave" is leaving with no deals in place. There isn't any embellishment around that. People lie. People have lied forever. There were a lot of people who voted to leave based purely on immigration issues. Stupid. **** stupid. 2 hours ago, desensitized43 said: I really don't know what to say anymore really. We're living in a world where a bunch of people can blatently lie and tell at best half truths to get the general public to vote a certain way and it's the public's fault for being gullible enough to fall for it. Are you sure that's a world you want to live in? You don't think that's disgusting? Doesn't it make you angry? I'm going to throw a wild accusation out and say the vote went the way you wanted so you don't care and doesn't that neatly sum up where we are. I don't care how corrupt the system is. How many lies are told. How much their actions undermine our system of democracy. Just as along as the people that "win" are on my side. Yes, it makes me angry. I feel despair at the whole situation and blame our current government for actually deciding to pursue this based on the views of idiots. And when I use idiots here, I don't mean "leave voters", I mean the general public. It should never have been a decision that people who would (and have) cast votes based purely on racism/xenophobia should be making or those who don't understand the situation at all. Way too complex for a "yes" or "no" scenario and exactly the sort of decision that we elect people into power to do. Instead, it attempts to pass the buck back. r.e: living in a world where a bunch of people can just lie to get the general public to vote a certain way, though, welcome to every general election ever and politics in general. Democratic? Yes. Filled with liars and power grabbers? Absolutely. The vote didn't go the way I wanted at all - I voted remain and would fully back another referendum. At the same time, I'm tired of people saying "oh, but this isn't the leave I voted for" etc. The leave you voted for was just "leave". There was nothing else around it. Nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992 I remember reading more about it but I can't find more in the 5 mins I had at work. I meant Bicks comment that the only reason it wasn't quashed was because it wasn't a legally binding vote .. I'd since modified my post as I found out that Bicks statement was misleading , quite appropriate under the circumstances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mjmooney Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Most leave voters wouldn't have had a clue what 'no deal' was and it's implications/ impacts. But they love the phrase. It sounds proper hard - like "no surrender". Like the idea of actually trading with the EU is soft and weak. Even though we totally depend on trade with them, both buying and selling. Turkeys voting for Christmas. I have to conclude that there has been a massive failure of the education system in this country, because anyone who actually wants "no deal" is thick as pigshit. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I meant Bicks comment that the only reason it wasn't quashed was because it wasn't a legally binding vote .. I'd since modified my post as I found out that Bicks statement was misleading , quite appropriate under the circumstances No i remember reading something exactly the same months ago but I couldn't find it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 12 minutes ago, mjmooney said: ... anyone who actually wants "no deal" is thick as pigshit... ... or a disaster capitalist, or a tax evading piece of shit, or a psychopath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2019 Top US guitar makers C. F. Martin & Co have produced a Brexit guitar. I thought at first it was a spoof, but no, absolutely genuine. A mere $2,799 to you, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Xann said: ... or a disaster capitalist, or a tax evading piece of shit, or a psychopath. I understand why both candidates are refusing to rule out no deal because it obviously loses a bit leverage with the EU if they do that. I wish people would stop asking them. Its obvious we dont want it, but we need to keep it on the table if we're going to go back and seek improvements. No deal is shit for us and the EU and the absolute worst outcome. We need to appear to be ready for it, and comfortable with it which is not going well so far. Edited July 10, 2019 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 10, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Genie said: it obviously loses a bit leverage with the EU I'm not sure how many times this has to be said. The current WA is the WA, the EU have stated more times than I care to forget, that the WA is no longer up for discussion or renegotiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 56 minutes ago, mjmooney said: I have to conclude that there has been a massive failure of the education system in this country, because anyone who actually wants "no deal" is thick as pigshit. This is unfair, genuinely so. It's not intelligence/lack of it that's the issue for many people. It's information (and misinformation). You or I can be intelligent, but misinformed, or uninformed. The difficulty, perhaps is that an enormous amount of people don't have the time, or the inclination or even the access, necessarily, to truth. A politician or campaigner appears on the telly and says "brexit will be great, we can control immigration and trade with th rest of the world under WTO article 24...blah blah" and then another one comes on, because lance and says "brexit will be bad because it'll make us poorer and we won't be able to trade on the same terms with..." and then the first one say "yes we will" and then the other one says "no we won't" - How the heck are most people able to dispassionately discern who if either of them, is telling the truth, or the least lies. Who is funding the first politician, or the second... People understandable already were sceptical of politicians and their adherence to the truth. Their newspaper might say "Leave, Traitors, enemies" and they might have their own prejudices or political outlook in favour of immigration or against, and etc. Some people may just not look at the news. Doesn't make them thick. It isn't half going to come back and bite all sorts of politicians and campaigners, all the lies that have been told, all the false hopes peddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 23 minutes ago, Genie said: I understand why both candidates are refusing to rule out no deal because it obviously loses a bit leverage with the EU if they do that. I wish people would stop asking them. Its obvious we dont want it, but we need to keep it on the table if we're going to go back and seek improvements. No deal is shit for us and the EU and the absolute worst outcome. We need to appear to be ready for it, and comfortable with it which is not going well so far. I don't. Well I do, but it's not for reasons of what's the best approach for the UK. It's not (IMO) like you say. Leaving it (no deal) on the table, looking from the EU side with whom we're wanting to negotiate, is ludicrous - it's like saying "we're prepared to blow our brains out if you don't give us what we want, and you'll get splattered with blood" - essentially the conclusion is "they're either mad, lying or utterly intent on self harm" because for all 3 of those, the message received will be ""you can't trust or negotiate with someone who is irrational - leave it". Whereas a truthful approach of "look, there's some aspects of this - specifically A, B and C - which we can't live with and what we propose is...X, and Y can we talk some more" is a more rational and honest approach. The EU will no doubt then put conditions from their perspective on things - if you want single market, then give up some immigration control...or whatever" but it's something they're willing to do, they said so. The UK red lines, self imposed, based on T.May's personal "take" on things, not consensus, was the massive error (well, one massive error). To be fair to the muddle that is Labour's approach to all this, that part they at least got right. Unfortunately the overall outcome as it is now, with the WA is far worse than remain. A different agreement would also almost certainly also be worse, but the hit on the UK much less severe, and an argument could be made with more credibility about the "price" we'd be paying against the gains (and there would be some) we'd achieve. People might say "still too high" or "OK" and the throbbers would obviously say "BETRAYAL" as they will always do, whether we get no deal or any other outcome. But the majority of parliament and of the country would be less divided, less angry. You (we all) have to face down the throbbers. It's where Corbyn, May and all the others fannying about in parliament have gone wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 I agree with a lot of that @blandy My big issue with ruling out no deal is that it feels like we're walking into the car dealership, telling him you're 100% buying a car today then asking him to do a deal. If wont happen. We want a car, he wants a sale. We need to find something that suits us all, and for him he needs a bit of fear we'll walk away. The problem we have is that the salesman already knows we're going go buy a car off him, because he knows the only other dealership within 500 miles is Dacia and our current car is off the road. So when we ask him to throw in upgraded alloys he isn't even willing to do the "let me ask my boss" routine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, bickster said: I'm not sure how many times this has to be said. The current WA is the WA, the EU have stated more times than I care to forget, that the WA is no longer up for discussion or renegotiation. I agree with you, but the people in charge still think they can get improvements so they're unwilling to remove the option of no deal. I dont think they are mad enough to do it, EU has already called our bluff on it. But as parliament wont vote it through they think it can either get better, or we'll remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Genie said: The problem we have is that the salesman already knows we're going go buy a car off him, because he knows the only other dealership within 500 miles is Dacia and our current car is off the road. So when we ask him to throw in upgraded alloys he isn't even willing to do the "let me ask my boss" routine. Yes, but lying and saying we have our Mercedes parked around the corner so we don't need his stupid car anyway, when he just watched us crash it through his front window doesn't actually change that dynamic. Edited July 10, 2019 by ml1dch 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, Genie said: I agree with a lot of that @blandy My big issue with ruling out no deal is that it feels like we're walking into the car dealership, telling him you're 100% buying a car today then asking him to do a deal. If wont happen. We want a car, he wants a sale. We need to find something that suits us all, and for him he needs a bit of fear we'll walk away. The problem we have is that the salesman already knows we're going go buy a car off him, because he knows the only other dealership within 500 miles is Dacia and our current car is off the road. So when we ask him to throw in upgraded alloys he isn't even willing to do the "let me ask my boss" routine. Sure. I understand the perspective (I hope). I think it's different though. Firstly we can't walk away. The very minute (if it happens) No deal were to occur, we'd immediately want a deal on trade, on aviation, on ...everything. So there is no such thing as "no deal" in reality. It's purely a Tory political "message" that has no actual veracity. It's just a name for making things worse, for personal/party gain. This is because while there's the name (No Deal) for "rejecting the WA and leaving", we will still absolutely need deal(s) and with exactly the same people and the same conditions still apply. We still need "transport" (from your analogy) and as you say, there's no other transport seller available to talk to to get it. So all "No Deal" does is make that harder and even more disadvantageous for the UK in terms of eventual outcome and mislead people into thinking it's some sort of closure, or would be. It isn't. It's madness to pretend, as they are, that it's a "negotiating tactic" . It's not. It has no weight beyond party political. It is utterly counterproductive, a means of avoiding the real need to continue to resolve the relationship with the EU. There has to be such a relationship. The interdependence we have is like eggs in a cake. You cannot get the eggs back out and put them into an, er, other thing with eggs in it instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakotaDakota Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) did anyone actually read the leaflet sent out by cameron to every household ahead of the vote? All it does it state that things will probably be worse & more expensive, Trade deals would stop and may take a further 10 years to be resolved, In the meantime everything could be more expensive. It even states that the govt thinks it would be hard to make a new deal with the EU. No mention of deals, backstops, any possible benefits, Just that things will probably be a bit shit, possibly a lot shit and still people voted for it. Not really sure how anyone can claim that people didn't know/realise that voting leave could make them worse off and they would now change their minds as a result of finding out this "new information" https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/525022/20160523_Leaflet_EASY_READ_FINAL_VERSION.pdf The European Union (EU) is a group of 28 countries. These countries work together to be a safe and peaceful place to live and do business. The Government believes that the UK should remain in the EU Better for business The EU’s Single Market has over 500 million people. Nearly half of everything we sell abroad goes to the rest of the EU. Over 3 million UK jobs are linked to things we sell to the rest of the EU. Remaining in the EU’s Single Market makes it easier and cheaper for UK companies to sell their goods and services to other EU countries. It also means that companies from other countries are more likely to choose to grow their businesses in the UK. This creates jobs in the UK. If we left the EU, we could still do business with the other countries in the EU, but it could become more expensive. Improving our lives Cost of living If the UK voted to leave the EU the value of the Pound could go down compared to other countries’ money. This would make things we buy from those countries more expensive here in the UK. Travel abroad Millions of UK citizens travel to Europe each year. The EU has made this easier and cheaper: Cheap air flights The rules agreed in the EU in the 1990s have led to cheaper prices for some plane tickets. Cheaper mobile phone charges The EU is getting rid of the extra charges for using your mobile phone when you travel to other EU countries. Free or cheaper healthcare Being a member of the EU means that UK citizens travelling in the EU can get free or cheaper healthcare. Some people think that none of this would change if we voted to leave the EU. But if we voted to leave, we cannot be sure that we would keep these benefits. What happens if we leave? Voting to leave the EU could also lead to years of not knowing what is going to happen to our trade with the EU. If the UK left the EU, our trade deals with over 50 other countries around the world would also stop. The UK would then have to make new ones. In the meantime, we could still trade with them but it could be more expensive. Agreeing all of these deals could take up to 10 years or more. Some people might say that “The EU would want to make a good, new deal with the UK quickly because they want to continue to trade with us.” The Government does not agree with this because a big part of everything the UK sells to other countries goes to other EU countries. But only a small part of what other EU countries sell abroad comes to the UK. The Government thinks that this would make it hard to agree a good, new deal quickly with the EU. Checking people at the border Some EU countries do not normally check people when they move from one EU country to another. The UK is not part of that group. The UK can check anyone coming into the country from continental Europe. Being a member of the EU helps us work together with other EU countries to catch criminals. This makes us safer. Edited July 10, 2019 by LakotaDakota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Yes, but lying and saying we have our Mercedes parked around the corner so we don't need his stupid car anyway, when he just watched us crash it through his front window doesn't actually change that dynamic. In an ideal world we'd have lucrative (at least potential) deals lined up with the likes of Japan, the US, Canada etc. at this stage and be doing the take it or leave it routine with the EU. I think that's how it was supposed to work out in the eyes of leavers. We look even more desperate than before, its obviously massively backfired. If we give our politicians any credit in this sorry pathetic mess, it's that they've not given up yet. Edited July 10, 2019 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2019 That ideal world doesn't exist. Trade deals take forever. The only reason we thought we could get some done quickly is because we somehow thought everyone would be stupid enough to roll over the terms they have with the EU as a whole to us as s single entity. Shockingly they've mostly told us to get stuffed. Still, we've got a deal lined up with the Faroe Islands. The bird watchers will be happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, blandy said: This is unfair, genuinely so. It's not intelligence/lack of it that's the issue for many people. It's information (and misinformation). You or I can be intelligent, but misinformed, or uninformed. The difficulty, perhaps is that an enormous amount of people don't have the time, or the inclination or even the access, necessarily, to truth. A politician or campaigner appears on the telly and says "brexit will be great, we can control immigration and trade with th rest of the world under WTO article 24...blah blah" and then another one comes on, because lance and says "brexit will be bad because it'll make us poorer and we won't be able to trade on the same terms with..." and then the first one say "yes we will" and then the other one says "no we won't" - How the heck are most people able to dispassionately discern who if either of them, is telling the truth, or the least lies. Who is funding the first politician, or the second... Education. Critical thinking. Nullius in verba. So, yes, I concede not 'thick' so much as poorly educated. Or perhaps resistant to being educated. You and I saw the same bus slogans, but we didn't swallow it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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