tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ml1dch said: Johnson's fantasy version that doesn't exist versus Corbyn's fantasy version that doesn't exist? How does that solve the question any more than the 2017 election solved the question? I was given the impressions that the Lib Dems would be forming the next government Edited July 9, 2019 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: I was given the impressions that the Lib Dems would be forming the next government True, that would probably fix it. Temporarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 hours ago, blandy said: It's still a fudge, because it takes no account of reality. It's not addressing the actual situation we're in. at all. He's still sitting on the fence, he's just switched cheeks is all. The reality is there's a terrible deal on the table, the one negotiated by May. Remainers, Leavers, everyone thinks it stinks, because it brings no advantages and many disadvantages - even Brexiters say it's worse than remaining. That's how bad it is. The only possible alternatives to that terrible deal are No deal (catastrophically bad) or Remain. Assuming (big if, here) Labour isn't terminally wrecked (actually, I suspect it is) the only possible option for Labour, or anyone sane, given the choice outlines is "Campaign to Remain". Labour's voters, suppoerters, members and MPs are all overwhelmingly prop remain. The country (UK) is now pro remain. Any other stance than unequivocal remain is politically dumb for Labour. It may be too late, they may already have lost the trust of all those remainy momentumites - the younger people who used to like Corbyn until they realised he is a word removed, too. All the options are poo. Remain is the least poo. Yes the may deal is woeful. It feels like leaving the eu but still tied in under crappier circumstances than now. Remain all.day for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 22 hours ago, tonyh29 said: ... it would depend on the how the question was worded... Thanks for the response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Surely when "leave" was an option, "no deal" was what people voted for? Anyone who voted "leave" and did not want a "no deal" situation is a **** a moron, to be honest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Stevo985 Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 Just now, bobzy said: Surely when "leave" was an option, "no deal" was what people voted for? Anyone who voted "leave" and did not want a "no deal" situation is a **** a moron, to be honest. Eh? Throughout the leave campaign(s) we were constantly told, over and over, that it wouldn’t be No deal. We’d get a great deal. It would be the easiest deal in the world etc etc so no. I would say basically everyone who voted leave didn’t think they were getting no deal. And most of the people who say they WERE voting for no deal are lying. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted July 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? Throughout the leave campaign(s) we were constantly told, over and over, that it wouldn’t be No deal. We’d get a great deal. It would be the easiest deal in the world etc etc so no. I would say basically everyone who voted leave didn’t think they were getting no deal. And most of the people who say they WERE voting for no deal are lying. To go further Ben, the possibility was dismissed as scaremongering by the very people who state that No Deal is the only acceptable form of leaving, now. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Eh? Throughout the leave campaign(s) we were constantly told, over and over, that it wouldn’t be No deal. We’d get a great deal. It would be the easiest deal in the world etc etc so no. I would say basically everyone who voted leave didn’t think they were getting no deal. And most of the people who say they WERE voting for no deal are lying. It doesn't really matter what people were told - people lie. Bad thing? Undoubtedly. But it happens all the time - particularly in politics, apparently. There were 2 options to choose from. As such, the only possible way to interpret them is on the extremes - one is that you stay as you are and the other is to leave by whatever means necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dr_Pangloss Posted July 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 Most leave voters wouldn't have had a clue what 'no deal' was and it's implications/ impacts. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 41 minutes ago, bobzy said: Surely when "leave" was an option, "no deal" was what people voted for? Anyone who voted "leave" and did not want a "no deal" situation is a **** a moron, to be honest. People who voted leave but actually wanted to "leave with a deal" aren't morons. They simply believed what they were being told. I can cite manay examples of leave campaigners like Johnson and Farage getting up on stage and saying we can "be like norway" and "be like switzerland" with a bit extra added on because we're "bigger" than them... They were lied to, anyone can fall for a lie, even clever people. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, bobzy said: There were 2 options to choose from. As such, the only possible way to interpret them is on the extremes - one is that you stay as you are and the other is to leave by whatever means necessary. Just really, really wrong. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 10, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, bobzy said: It doesn't really matter what people were told - people lie. Bad thing? Undoubtedly. But it happens all the time - particularly in politics, apparently. There were 2 options to choose from. As such, the only possible way to interpret them is on the extremes - one is that you stay as you are and the other is to leave by whatever means necessary. Amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, bobzy said: It doesn't really matter what people were told - people lie. Bad thing? Undoubtedly. But it happens all the time - particularly in politics, apparently. There were 2 options to choose from. As such, the only possible way to interpret them is on the extremes - one is that you stay as you are and the other is to leave by whatever means necessary. I really don't know what to say anymore really. We're living in a world where a bunch of people can blatently lie and tell at best half truths to get the general public to vote a certain way and it's the public's fault for being gullible enough to fall for it. Are you sure that's a world you want to live in? You don't think that's disgusting? Doesn't it make you angry? I'm going to throw a wild accusation out and say the vote went the way you wanted so you don't care and doesn't that neatly sum up where we are. I don't care how corrupt the system is. How many lies are told. How much their actions undermine our system of democracy. Just as along as the people that "win" are on my side. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 10, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, bobzy said: It doesn't really matter what people were told - people lie. Actually it does matter in a democratic vote, it's illegal. The only reason the whole referendum result wasn't quoshed was because it was only an advisory vote. Undisputable fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bickster said: Actually it does matter in a democratic vote, it's illegal. The only reason the whole referendum result wasn't quoshed was because it was only an advisory vote. Undisputable fact well yes ....and No the court ruled any breach of election rules was insufficiently material to trigger the application of common law that might render the 2016 referendum invalid , the court also had no evidential basis to conclude that the referendum result would have been different ... the third reason was the advisory nature of the referendum put its outcome beyond the remit of the court to quash . so it wasn't the "Only " reason Edited July 10, 2019 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 23 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: I really don't know what to say anymore really. We're living in a world where a bunch of people can blatently lie and tell at best half truths to get the general public to vote a certain way and it's the public's fault for being gullible enough to fall for it. Are you sure that's a world you want to live in? You don't think that's disgusting? Doesn't it make you angry? I'm going to throw a wild accusation out and say the vote went the way you wanted so you don't care and doesn't that neatly sum up where we are. I don't care how corrupt the system is. How many lies are told. How much their actions undermine our system of democracy. Just as along as the people that "win" are on my side. have you ever lived in a world where politicians don't lie ? That's not to whitewash over events , just general half truths aren't sole property of the 2016 referendum , so presumably you've been angry , disgusted with the political landscape all your life ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 10, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: That's not to whitewash over events , just general half truths aren't sole property of the 2016 referendum , so presumably you've been angry , disgusted with the political landscape all your life ? Aren't most people disgusted with the politicians etc? I think the level of dishonesty and pure contradiction particularly from the Leave team people, but also some remain people has taken things to a new low. As an example, and there are absolutley zillions of these (see Led by Donkeys for many examples) but Farage saying during the campaign we can get and need to go for a better deal than Norway yet now, he's demanding nothing but a "pure" no deal. He's basically angrily screaming against himself and his own claims and demands from 2 years ago. Whether it's that word removed, or remainer turned leavers like May saying "no deal is better than a bad deal" - pure lies. Jeremy Hunt now also pushing No deal as a serious option. A year or so ago he was an avid remainer. ANd all those leavers who talked about staying inside the single market now demanding we must absolutely not.... There's an endless sewer of these venal liars. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I've not heard that before , where was that published ? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44856992 Quote The referendum was not legally binding, merely "advisory," according to a Supreme Court judgement in December 2016, so it can't be ordered to be re-run by a court - any decision to have a fresh referendum would have to be made by the government and Parliament would have to pass a referendum act. I remember reading more about it but I can't find more in the 5 mins I had at work. 3 minutes ago, blandy said: . Jeremy Hunt now also pushing No deal as a serious option. A year or so ago he was an avid remainer. Even worse: August 18th: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/08/can-britain-deal-with-no-deal/567766/ Quote These concerns seemed to be even further amplified Thursday, when Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt told ITV News that the U.K. leaving without a deal would be “a huge geostrategic mistake,” the likes of which he said “we would regret for generations.” August 21st: https://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-hunt-no-deal-brexit-imperils-extremely-vulnerable-europe/ Quote A no-deal Brexit would further destabilize the international order at an “extremely vulnerable” moment in European history, U.K. Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt will say in his first diplomatic visit to Washington on Tuesday. Describing a no-deal Brexit as “one of the biggest threats to European unity,” Hunt will call on the European Commission to engage with the U.K.’s latest Brexit proposals “with an open mind.” Now he's in the running to be leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 For those interested in the Irish Border question, there's a paper published by NI manufacturers which discusses the detailed issues, what has been suggested so far, and the unanswered questions. Downloadable from their website here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: have you ever lived in a world where politicians don't lie ? That's not to whitewash over events , just general half truths aren't sole property of the 2016 referendum , so presumably you've been angry , disgusted with the political landscape all your life ? It's not about whether they lie or not. We know they do, but there's always been elements of truth thrown in or word play to allow a "get out" down the line. There's no truth at all anymore. They're saying whatever they have to say one day and the opposite the next...Saying whatever they have to say to safely navigate today and then do the same tomorrow. My anger is for the previous poster calling people morons who's only crime was to trust what they were told...is that a fair comment? In a fair world people like Johnson and Farage would have been jailed, not rewarded. What they've done is electoral fraud. At the very least that referendum is void but as has been stated, it wasn't binding. That the government are treating it as binding is an indicator of how weak and self serving the political class is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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