peterms Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Xann said: It seems those leaked internal UK diplomatic memos have wound up the Fat Orange One. Anyone still thinking we'll get a good trade deal from the US? I don't see how any trade deal can be attractive for us. The things they want to sell us that they can't already tend to be things which would require us to weaken our regulatory standards, or else give them market access to things like the NHS where their access is the exact opposite of what is in our interests. A new trade deal with them necessarily means accepting things that we don't currently accept for very good reasons, as far as I can see. I don't see the anger of the vile orange baby making a substantive difference to that. Though the idea of the disgraced Fox making a grovelling and humiliating apology to Empress Ivanka for our diplomats having relayed some uncontroversial and indisputable commonplaces isn't encouraging, if that's the attitude that will guide any discussions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, Xann said: Say Ref II materializes? Would you vote leave again? tbh it would depend on the how the question was worded , if it was a straight In or Out vote like before , I doubt I'd vote .. they haven't implement the outcome of the first referendum so why legitimise a second one .. yes I know referendums aren't binding but it was sold as a one time only vote with the PM saying our wishes would be respected ..true he then resigned , but his successor then invoked article 50 and won a subsequent GE as a mandate ... again , true it was with a reduced majority , but it was still a victory and a victory on a manifesto that promised "no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK" (though it didn't state we would be actively pursuing one ) I can't see a referendum question with all the leave options v remain as workable so that would be ruled out so Ref II for me can only be around take the May ( or Boris if somehow there is one) Deal or No deal ... and theoretically No deal is still the default position regardless at some point .. If Boris can be forced into a GE before we leave and someone stood on a platform of "I'm withdrawing article 50 " and won the GE , then far as I'm concerned we stay .. it won't make Farage or the leave question go away and probably prolongs the argument for many more years but by then Italian debt will bring down the EU and we will all be moaning that we should have left anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, peterms said: Though the idea of the disgraced Fox making a grovelling and humiliating apology to Empress Ivanka for our diplomats having relayed some uncontroversial and indisputable commonplaces isn't encouraging, if that's the attitude that will guide any discussions. way I read it ( though it's open to interpretation ) he's he's not apologising for anyone saying these things , just apologising for the fact they were leaked I will be apologizing for the fact that either our civil service or elements of our political class have not lived up to the expectations that either we have or the United States has about their behavior, which in this particular case has lapsed in a most extraordinary and unacceptable way,” but , Its called diplomacy for a reason , I'm sure we've all had to make grovelling apologies over the years , ...It wasn't the fact the jeans made Mrs H29's bum look big that was the problem , it was the fact I chose to offer such an opinion when asked that was the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 38 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: won a subsequent GE as a mandate ... again , true it was with a reduced majority A Conservative majority - in 2017? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 42 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: they haven't implement the outcome of the first referendum so why legitimise a second one .. y Why is that? Because it isn't/wasn't as simple as promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, snowychap said: A Conservative majority - in 2017? About as likely as a green one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 9, 2019 Moderator Share Posted July 9, 2019 43 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: they haven't implement the outcome of the first referendum What was the outcome than needed implementing? Which version of Leave should be implemented? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, snowychap said: A Conservative majority - in 2017? seems I had a bit of a brain freeze moment there , i meant majority of seats not house majority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Why is that? Because it isn't/wasn't as simple as promised. I thought the argument put forward previously was that we didn't know what we were voting for and we were all misinformed ... are we now saying that the how that we weren't told about wasn't as simple as we weren't promised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I thought the argument put forward previously was that we didn't know what we were voting for and we were all misinformed ... are we now saying that the how that we weren't told about wasn't as simple as we weren't promised Are the two mutually exclusive? During the ref we were misinformed both around what leaving meant and about the complexity of it. It isn't that difficult to grasp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisVillan Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Which version of leave has the mandate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, ChrisVillan said: Which version of leave has the mandate? Whatever version Nige is peddling this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, bickster said: What was the outcome than needed implementing? Which version of Leave should be implemented? the vote the public was given was Leave or remain .. the version of leave was down to parliament as Parliament haven't been able to agree , then as I said in my previous post , you could possibly now ask a second question " these are the options , how do you want to leave " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 44 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: way I read it ( though it's open to interpretation ) he's he's not apologising for anyone saying these things , just apologising for the fact they were leaked That's the official line. I would imagine that in private, the apologies will very much be about the content and substance of the assessment, not the leak. Already we see government figures saying that it is not their view that Trump is insecure, the administration is inept and so on. Their aim will be to placate Trump without alienating the entire senior civil service by being seen to criticise Darroch for saying what he said or suggesting that he should fail to convey obvious truths and so render his role meaningless. Perhaps Dr Pox could point out that at least Darroch stopped short of calling the place a shithole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, ChrisVillan said: Which version of leave has the mandate? It does make me laugh, that no deal'ers state that No Deal is the only Brexit, without grasping the reality that by adopting No Deal they lose the mandate, or 'will of the people' they love to rabbit on about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: i meant majority of seats not house majority That's the same thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, tonyh29 said: the vote the public was given was Leave or remain .. the version of leave was down to parliament as Parliament haven't been able to agree , then as I said in my previous post , you could possibly now ask a second question " these are the options , how do you want to leave " Presumably with Remain on the ballot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Could go in either thread but New attacks. Absolute disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 minute ago, peterms said: That's the same thing... grrrr , lets just agree that you know what I meant even if i didn't write it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Could go in either thread but New attacks. Absolute disaster. I should think May is bitterly regretting her servile and fawning approach to him in arranging the recent state visit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts