The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

11,500 Romanians unemployed is still quite a large number don’t you think?  Yes it’s not a reflection on Romanians as it’s around 2-3% of those that have arrived here that are not in work.  So a small percentage in that respect.

But it still suggest there’s an issue somewhere doesn’t it? Whether that’s deportation issues or lack of Jobs in this country.  It’s something that maybe could have been avoided if there was more control. 

Maybe. Wasn't the point I was making.

If you'd started with the above then you may have gotten a better reception.

[Vive_La_Villa]

24 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Maybe. Wasn't the point I was making.

If you'd started with the above then you may have gotten a better reception.

Yes. I’ve since acknowledged that in my response to @StefanAVFC.

I didn’t help myself. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

32 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Cool, the conversation has now caught up to summer 2016.

Now, how is this thing you decided you wanted going to actually work?

I already mentioned by extending skilled worker Visa’s from 1 year to 5 years and loosening immigration laws and increasing the visa cap placed on non EU skilled workers.

Is this not a good thing? 

[NurembergVillan]

47 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

But surely a country should have some control over who lives here?

We DO.  That's entirely the point of why the immigration angle to Brexit is so wrong.

WE choose whether to let the unemployed immigrants stay.  If it's an issue with deportation - that's on us.  Coming out of the EU isn't going to stop us from not managing people who don't have a right to be here.

In terms of the NHS - a huge amount of the strain there can be divided into two chunks, the first being underfunding in real terms (the increased amounts of money aren't in line with the general costs of doing business) and the second is an ageing population.  When I was a kid it was totally amazing to hear of someone being 100 years old, now I know several people with grandparents either at that age or getting close to it.  Old people tend to need way more looking after than people in their 20s and 30s, even if they're from Romania.

[ml1dch]

6 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I already mentioned by extending skilled worker Visa’s from 1 year to 5 years and loosening immigration laws and increasing the visa cap placed on non EU skilled workers.

So to solve all the problems that this is going to create, we do something that we can do now and could have done at any point in the last forty years?

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

So to solve all the problems that this is going to create, we do something that we can do now and could have done at any point in the last forty years?

I don’t know about that. I just said I think it’s a good thing it’s finally being done. 

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t know about that. I just said I think it’s a good thing it’s finally being done. 

Well, it was the response that you gave when asked how things are going to work now we're leaving.

[PompeyVillan]

Public services have been shafted by Tory austerity not by my lovely European neighbours. 

It's a simple but intelligent ruse, and one that has worked incredibly well for many years. 

[lapal_fan]

I thought this was quite good, even though it's a little outdated now;

http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/deportations-removals-and-voluntary-departures-from-the-uk/ 

Deportations, Removals and Voluntary Departures from the UK

 

Also, @Vive_La_Villa, what difference does it make to see non-eu skilled workers coming in, over eu skilled workers?

You've made that point a couple of times and I'm just wondering what difference to you that would make?

I also assume you're not a white guy?  (from what you've said). 

[blandy]

 

2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

1.5 people movement in around 16 years (I haven’t got the exact numbers ) is still a big strain on public services and ideally there should have been more control. Whether that’s in or out of the EU.  Immigration is healthy 

I agree. Managed immigration (according to need) is healthy and necessary

1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said:

We DO.  That's entirely the point of why the immigration angle to Brexit is so wrong.

WE choose whether to let the unemployed immigrants stay.  If it's an issue with deportation - that's on us.  Coming out of the EU isn't going to stop us from not managing people who don't have a right to be here.

I agree with your post Rob, apart from the bit quoted, which IMO is contradictory (though not by you). What I mean is that the UK has the ability to control immigration properly, but doesn't actually use that legal ability. Under successive Governments, for right or wrong, the approach (in deed not word) has been very lax. Our capability to actually get a grip on the detail is not there to match the words. So what that has led to is the type of horros of Theresa May, with her go home vans, windrush victimisation and so on. There was this unachievable "10s of thousands" promise made by Cameron and May that they knew and know they have no chance of making happen, because the tools aren;t in place to do it, even if it was a good thing. The EU free movement thing is about free movement of Labour, not free movement of anyone regardless of employment status/prospects. If someone from the EU comes here and doesn't get a jog within 3 months, then the UK (any EU nation) can legally remove them. But we don't monitor that situation, so we have no knowledge of their status. We don't remove them. Instead the government picks on windrush people and so on. If we (the Gov't) wanted to reduce immigration, then they could very much stiffen up the requirements for non-EU people. But they haven't (much) - perhaps due to opposition to being overly heavy handed and harmful. I'm not saying they should, by the way, this is a comment on the hypocrisy and lies, not on my view on immigration.

As VLV says, the net increase in UK population due to immigration has both good and bad effects. The bad impacts have not been adequately addressed, and this is why (some) people felt immigration was an issue to mean "Leave" (encouraged as they were, to do so by the lying Bell End Farage etc.).

If that's all TL:DR then yes, we have the theoretical ability to control immigration, but in practice we don't really use it in line with the Gov't rhetoric. (accepting many people nevertheless have a tough time because of rules).

[Chindie]

The plan to turn 13 miles of motorway in Kent into a lorry park is likely to become a long-term solution to Brexit problems, apparently. Called Operation Brock, the government insists this isn't to do with Brexit at all. Kent council meanwhile added that the name 'Brock' apparently comes Brexit Operations across Kent.

Idiots.

[VILLAMARV]

I've never had the balls to go and live abroad. As such the only immigration procedures I've ever had to endure is applying for a holiday visa now and then and going through passport check at an airport.

I worked for a hotel that took a lot of employees from Eastern Europe for a short time. I have anecdotal stories from all that.

There is a debate to be had about immigration. I find it unfortunate that it became the issue that resonated with large chunks of the population in regards to the EU being a political hot-topic. When race is used to divide us it's never a pretty sight, nor is it morally justifiable in my eyes. Trying to quickly summarise my thoughts in some way the things I think are important are

The posters used by UKIP that copied Nazi propaganda from back in the day - Utterly appalling.
The scaremongering and fear using groups of people (Romanians lets say) to create an external threat - Utterly appalling
The EU's immigration policies - Utterly appalling
The creation of 'irregular migrants' - Utterly appalling
UK's (and wider world's) immigration detention estate - Utterly appalling

None of this has anything to do with public services or benefits. (and as I'm typing this PV just made the same point). None of it has anything to do with the Romanians or the Greeks or indeed the Indians or the Pakistanis. It has nothing to so with French people in the UK or ex-pats in Spain. It certainly has little to do with jerbs.

We have watched the creation of an industry where human beings - the vast majority of whom are asylum seekers and refugees - are the product being monetised. Put out to private tender. What do people actually think of that when you stop thinking about the economy for 5 seconds? Or which version of TTIP we'll end up with? Or May or Corbyn or Ress-Mogg or whatever distraction is on the telly today?

My point being, if there is one, is if you want to talk immigration, talk immigration. Stefan is obviously a fount of knowledge in this area from an inter-EU country perspective considering he had the balls to go in the first place. (obviously like Chrisp said earlier you made a funny take that on the chin in fact revel in it! Own it mate!) Why not listen and learn from what his tale is though? He has a different perspective on it to the majority of us in here. That's only part of the immigration story though isn't it. Or have the Calais migrant camps disappearing from the news and stories of hundreds dying from capsized overloaded boats in the med not being around all that often or the thousands deported back to Turkey once they reach the EU not being mentioned everyday mean these issues have not resonated with people?

And War. If you want to talk an increase in the numbers we can't have a proper debate without recognising the fact that they are running from British made weaponry imho.

And the global economic structure. If we are going to try and prop up the paradigm where people in certain countries are worth more than others (lets keep the argument simple and say in time-labour costs) then isn't that actually at the heart of the whole point of whether we need controls over numbers? Something that drives people to want to come here, or to other richer nations, for reasons other than cultural experience? And while people shout 'think of the children' at Trump and the US they seem to forget they exist in the same system.

I'm sure there are other points to consider - maybe we'll have a debate now, who knows! but @Vive_La_Villa when you regurgitate points you hear on the news or from the mouths of politicians you are falling into the trap of accepting their definition of the argument, and when you do that, people in a thread like this will rip it to shreds (and Farage for example has given us all plenty of preparation and practice over the last few years so we're locked and loaded man!).

I doubt any one of us has 'the answers' to this amazingly complex issue. But I also refuse to believe that every single poster doesn't have at least something of worth to add to the debate.

[StefanAVFC]

I'm happy to talk about my experiences, Brexit from my perspective, from my friends' perspectives, from the perspectives of Poles who lived in the UK and came back.

I'd bore you all to death but I think I have some background on it after 4 years here.

I'm definitely not living in a bubble.

[VILLAMARV]

Shame though, this looks fun

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

49 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The plan to turn 13 miles of motorway in Kent into a lorry park is likely to become a long-term solution to Brexit problems, apparently. Called Operation Brock, the government insists this isn't to do with Brexit at all. Kent council meanwhile added that the name 'Brock' apparently comes Brexit Operations across Kent.

Idiots.

Brexit Operations Link Overseas Crossing is the new one apparantley.  They ditched "Brock" as its a bit mongy.

[NurembergVillan]

2 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Brexit Operations Link Overseas Crossing is the new one apparantley.  They ditched "Brock" as its a bit mongy.

BOLOC

[StefanAVFC]

10 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

BOLOC

Or go for the american spelling of x'ing and you get...

[blandy]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

And War. If you want to talk an increase in the numbers we can't have a proper debate without recognising the fact that they are running from British made weaponry imho.

Hmmm. Obviously in some cases, but by and large, it's absolutely not true.

Furthermore, awfully bad news for the war mongering sector - the number of wars going on is at a long term low, and the number of casualties is falling in them, too.

[StefanAVFC]

More on the vet/food standards stuff Blandy(?) was posting about a few days back

Just shows how little these zealots actually know and understand. We're fed up of experts. Who needs them?

Edited July 31, 2018 by StefanAVFC

[VILLAMARV]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Hmmm. Obviously in some cases, but by and large, it's absolutely not true.

Furthermore, awfully bad news for the war mongering sector - the number of wars going on is at a long term low, and the number of casualties is falling in them, too.

What bit blandy the British weaponry bit or the increase in population displacement due to war bit?