The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Davkaus]

I'm going to try not to jump straight to mockery, but it's really bloody hard.

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

It will never come out in the media, but we are basically being blackmailed by the EU. There is no way in the world they will make it easy for us to leave. Nearly all the original plans by the tories which would have been mostly positive for us in the UK, have been thrown out by the EU.

Would those plans have been positive for the EU? Which plans specifically do you feel were reasonable, that the EU were wrong to 'throw out'?

'Blackmail' is truly ludicrous. If you and I try to negotiate a contract, and your proposals all take the piss, giving you huge benefits, with none to me, it's not blackmail for me to decline.

[bickster]

It'll never come out in the media... REALLY... The Mail and The Express would have been all over that like a dose of the clap spreading around a Bangkok whorehouse

Wise up man, seriously, the Anti-EU elements of the media would take great delight in that coming out, they've tried it numerous times already, it falls flat because it isn't remotely true

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

It will never come out in the media, but we are basically being blackmailed by the EU. There is no way in the world they will make it easy for us to leave. Nearly all the original plans by the tories which would have been mostly positive for us in the UK, have been thrown out by the EU. We are now being forced to back track by the EU, close to following there rules for when we leave.  May , although i'm not a lover, is getting a rough deal, but she is having to bite her tongue, as she can't just come out and say the EU are a bunch of Representatives for Wellingborough, she is trying her best to stay on there side, as we need too. 

Listen to a man who has hardly any bearing on Brexit, so can say what he wants, although it's being hidden by the Media boys. Nigel Farage. He sees the EU for what they really are. Everyone else involved in Brexit are to scared to come out and say they are just a bunch of non elected bureaucrats. 

 

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, Straggler said:

So given that the govt are discussing stockpiling food etc, and that us Brits are in the habit of stripping the shelves of our supermarkets like a swarm of locusts at the first hint of snow, never mind a full blown food crisis, are any of the rest of you thinking of building up your own supply?  I may be an old cynic, but I don't entirely trust the government to set up a storage and distribution enterprise big enough to supply the supermarkets for any length of time.  Even with the army dedicated to moving the food around, unless we are turning all our army bases into food depots and emptying out our aircraft hangers of planes so we can fill them with corned beef and beans we don't even have the storage to keep enough food in.

Whilst I have the opportunity I'm getting a big old deep-freezer to go in the garage and getting 10% more or so on each weekly shop. 

I am absolutely torn in two over this. On the one hand, of course I want to not starve, and to protect my nearest and dearest etc. On the other hand, if everybody starts stockpiling food we will simply move forward shortages to now, and inevitable price rises will hurt the poorest and most desperate right now. I don't want to send thousands more to food banks than who already need them. 

[bickster]

5 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

We'll be begging to rejoin the EU within 5 months. 

Fixed

[TheAuthority]

5 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

We'll be begging to rejoin the EU within 5 weeks. 

Amended.

[Enda]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Nearly all the original plans by the tories which would have been mostly positive for us in the UK, have been thrown out by the EU. We are now being forced to back track by the EU, close to following there rules for when we leave. 

Hi there. I'm European; a proud Irish nationalist, and I will always be "Irish first", but I'm very supportive of the EU project overall. You're leaving our union. As you're entitled to do. Sorry to see you go, but best of luck.

I have just one question for you: call it "blackmail" if you must, but why on earth do you think I'd do anything but back the EU  (unelected bureaucrats or otherwise) 100% in our negotiations with you? 

[TheAuthority]

Joking aside @bickster I don’t think 5 weeks is that crazy of an estimate.

Listening to the logistics experts in the video posted by @Xann there are going to be immediate issues at the UK border. 12,000 trucks a day go through Folkestone into the UK all under EU guidelines and documentation. At midnight on March 29th all of those trucks will have to be stopped and checked by a non existent UK customs force. How long will each truck take? An hour? 2? It will be absolute carnage. How long will the tailback be? How can perishable food last that long sitting in trucks?

Manufacturing Companies are already leaving because they need “just in time” deliveries. Trucks roll up to car plants and the delivery is on the production line in 40 minutes. That’s not going to be feasible after March 29th.

The government is talking about stockpiling food and medicine - well, where? There aren’t any warehouses. How close to distribution centers can you actually store the food?

I think 5 weeks is a realistic estimate before things go all zombie apocalypse.

[Enda]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

 He sees the EU for what they really are. Everyone else involved in Brexit are to scared to come out and say they are just a bunch of non elected bureaucrats. 

One more thing. You can basically split the EU into three parts.

1. The Commission. This is the civil service. Yes, they're unelected bureaucrats (except the head of the civil service, who is elected.) Make proposals and do the nitty gritty implementation stuff, like every civil service. By number of people employed, the UK civil service is about ten times bigger than the EU's.
2. The Parliament. All elected. Just like MPs. Passes legislation. Elects head of the civil service.
3. The Council. The MPs of every country in the EU (or Ministers for Agriculture if they're talking cows, etc). All elected representatives. They set the agenda and get the ball rolling.

Can we stop with the "just a bunch of bureaucrats" schtick please?

[bickster]

23 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Joking aside @bickster I don’t think 5 weeks is that crazy of an estimate.

Listening to the logistics experts in the video posted by @Xann there are going to be immediate issues at the UK border. 12,000 trucks a day go through Folkestone into the UK all under EU guidelines and documentation. At midnight on March 29th all of those trucks will have to be stopped and checked by a non existent UK customs force. How long will each truck take? An hour? 2? It will be absolute carnage. How long will the tailback be? How can perishable food last that long sitting in trucks?

Manufacturing Companies are already leaving because they need “just in time” deliveries. Trucks roll up to car plants and the delivery is on the production line in 40 minutes. That’s not going to be feasible after March 29th.

The government is talking about stockpiling food and medicine - well, where? There aren’t any warehouses. How close to distribution centers can you actually store the food?

I think 5 weeks is a realistic estimate before things go all zombie apocalypse.

You are probably correct, I was just allowing for pigheadedness

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, Enda said:

One more thing. You can basically split the EU into three parts.

1. The Commission. This is the civil service. Yes, they're unelected bureaucrats (except the head of the civil service, who is elected.) Make proposals and do the nitty gritty implementation stuff, like every civil service. By number of people employed, the UK civil service is about ten times bigger than the EU's.
2. The Parliament. All elected. Just like MPs. Passes legislation. Elects head of the civil service.
3. The Council. The MPs of every country in the EU (or Ministers for Agriculture if they're talking cows, etc). All elected representatives. They set the agenda and get the ball rolling.

Can we stop with the "just a bunch of bureaucrats" schtick please?

[Enda]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

21 minutes ago, Enda said:

One more thing. You can basically split the EU into three parts.

1. The Commission. This is the civil service. Yes, they're unelected bureaucrats (except the head of the civil service, who is elected.) Make proposals and do the nitty gritty implementation stuff, like every civil service. By number of people employed, the UK civil service is about ten times bigger than the EU's.
2. The Parliament. All elected. Just like MPs. Passes legislation. Elects head of the civil service.
3. The Council. The MPs of every country in the EU (or Ministers for Agriculture if they're talking cows, etc). All elected representatives. They set the agenda and get the ball rolling.

Can we stop with the "just a bunch of bureaucrats" schtick please?

I think the question that needs to be asked though is who sets the agenda of the EU?

And then, when that’s been answered, is how can either a proud Irish nationalist or a solitary nation change that agenda? 

If we don’t like the way our countries are being governed, we expect to have a vote with at least a reasonable chance of changing said government and the direction it is taking. How does that happen on a European level? 

[Enda]

13 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I think the question that needs to be asked though is who sets the agenda of the EU?

And then, when that’s been answered, is how can either a proud Irish nationalist or a solitary nation change that agenda? 

If we don’t like the way our countries are being governed, we expect to have a vote with at least a reasonable chance of changing said government and the direction it is taking. How does that happen on a European level? 

It's set by Merkel and May and Macron (and Varadkar and everyone else) sitting around every six months and banging their fists on the table. Member-states hold vetoes on "sensitive" areas like taxes and abortion. Everything else e.g. environmental policy is done by Qualified Majority Voting, i.e. a few countries clubbing together can veto reforms.

Little Ireland, for an obvious example, should not be able to hold back the other 500 million people if there's a consensus on environmental policy. If Ireland is sufficiently unhappy with the direction, they should leave.

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 hours ago, Straggler said:

So given that the govt are discussing stockpiling food etc, and that us Brits are in the habit of stripping the shelves of our supermarkets like a swarm of locusts at the first hint of snow, never mind a full blown food crisis, are any of the rest of you thinking of building up your own supply?  I may be an old cynic, but I don't entirely trust the government to set up a storage and distribution enterprise big enough to supply the supermarkets for any length of time.  Even with the army dedicated to moving the food around, unless we are turning all our army bases into food depots and emptying out our aircraft hangers of planes so we can fill them with corned beef and beans we don't even have the storage to keep enough food in.

Whilst I have the opportunity I'm getting a big old deep-freezer to go in the garage and getting 10% more or so on each weekly shop. 

Mighty be worth looking in to Air raid shelters why you are at it. 

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

31 minutes ago, Enda said:

It's set by Merkel and May and Macron (and Varadkar and everyone else) sitting around every six months and banging their fists on the table. Member-states hold vetoes on "sensitive" areas like taxes and abortion. Everything else e.g. environmental policy is done by Qualified Majority Voting, i.e. a few countries clubbing together can veto reforms.

Little Ireland, for an obvious example, should not be able to hold back the other 500 million people if there's a consensus on environmental policy. If Ireland is sufficiently unhappy with the direction, they should leave.

And there in lies the rub. Cameron proved that there was no way for the U.K. to alter the course of the EU even on issues that were affecting the entire block. So it’s no surprise, by your own argument, the U.K. walked away.

I admire your commitment to the ideal but for many people the idea of living in a country where theoretically  a 100% of the population could disagree with a law or policy and it would make absolutely no difference is a frightening state of affairs. I think that concern is legitimate.

 

[foreveryoung]

56 minutes ago, Enda said:

It's set by Merkel and May and Macron (and Varadkar and everyone else) sitting around every six months and banging their fists on the table. Member-states hold vetoes on "sensitive" areas like taxes and abortion. Everything else e.g. environmental policy is done by Qualified Majority Voting, i.e. a few countries clubbing together can veto reforms.

Little Ireland, for an obvious example, should not be able to hold back the other 500 million people if there's a consensus on environmental policy. If Ireland is sufficiently unhappy with the direction, they should leave.

Its listened to by these people. They can no way change or influence the EU decisions, otherwise why the hell are we leaving?

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

why the hell are we leaving?

Now you’re getting it. 

[Davkaus]

44 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Mighty be worth looking in to Air raid shelters why you are at it. 

Imagine thinking it might be a good idea to prepare food supplies, in the face of constant articles about food shortages, with government ministers admitting it's a possibility. 

Better get the tinfoil hat out, right? 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Its listened to by these people. They can no way change or influence the EU decisions, otherwise why the hell are we leaving?

Because the Tory Party were losing votes to UKIP and a troublesome minor fraction were causing trouble internally. We got a referendum because the Tory Party feared losing power.

Leave won the referendum because they lied, massively lied and 52% of the population believed those massive lies.