The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[bickster]

20 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

And there in lies the rub. Cameron proved that there was no way for the U.K. to alter the course of the EU even on issues that were affecting the entire block. So it’s no surprise, by your own argument, the U.K. walked away.

I admire your commitment to the ideal but for many people the idea of living in a country where theoretically  a 100% of the population could disagree with a law or policy and it would make absolutely no difference is a frightening state of affairs. I think that concern is legitimate.

 

Which laws do you object to?

[Enda]

43 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

And there in lies the rub. Cameron proved that there was no way for the U.K. to alter the course of the EU even on issues that were affecting the entire block. So it’s no surprise, by your own argument, the U.K. walked away.

I admire your commitment to the ideal but for many people the idea of living in a country where theoretically  a 100% of the population could disagree with a law or policy and it would make absolutely no difference is a frightening state of affairs. I think that concern is legitimate.

Absolutely. If the UK concludes that the benefits of the EU (the single market, maximum bargaining power on trade deals from a customs union, cost savings from centralizing the likes of medical trials etc etc etc) do not exceed the costs (you lot have been outvoted on issues) then nobody will force you to stay.

Save you the click: you're not outvoted much.

Quote

The British government has voted against EU laws 2% of the time since 1999

Official EU voting records* show that the British government has voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times since 1999, according to UK in a Changing Europe Fellows Sara Hagemann and Simon Hix.

In other words, UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

6

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Enda
EU overlord mods made me include the quote

[Enda]

19 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Its listened to by these people. They can no way change or influence the EU decisions, otherwise why the hell are we leaving?

Okay, we're on different sides, so help me see things from your view. Can you give me your best example on an EU decision or regulation that the UK were outvoted on, and that affects your life?

[Vive_La_Villa]

20 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Imagine thinking it might be a good idea to prepare food supplies, in the face of constant articles about food shortages, with government ministers admitting it's a possibility. 

Better get the tinfoil hat out, right? 

Yep just like that stock market crash and deep recession the country was going to fall in to after the Referendum. The one our chancellor at the time advised us about. 

Whilst I would never condone the scare mongering around immigrants we saw from the remain camp. Some of it was frankly disgusting.

It has to be acknowledged that both camps were guilty of a lot of hyperbole.  It’s not going to end anytime soon.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

20 minutes ago, bickster said:

Which laws do you object to?

I haven’t said I’ve objected to any of the laws, simply that I have concerns over the mechanisms that bring them either in to place or perhaps, more importantly, to get them changed. Just because something bad hasn’t happened to date, doesn’t mean one can’t see flaws in a process. I’ve never had a car crash but I still wear a seatbelt.

To answer @Enda in the same post to save wasting space. I feel your last post maybe fell into the same trap as the remain side made during the referendum campaign. Namely, trying to answer every political argument with an economic one. It’s still happening today.

Worried about immigration - you’ll be worse off financially if you leave.

Worried about the democracy of EU - you’ll be financially worse off if you leave

Worried about he erosion of individual nations- you’ll be worse off financially if you leave

...and so it goes on.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by WhatAboutTheFinish

[Enda]

5 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

To answer @Enda in the same post to save wasting space. I feel your last post maybe fell into the same trap as the remain side made during the referendum campaign. Namely, trying to answer every political argument with an economic one. It’s still happening today.

That's fair. What I meant by "worse off" wasn't just economic though. You can worse off if they don't let you go to Villa Park, even if it saves you money.

(TBF we'd all be better off not watching Villa this year, but that's another point.)

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

I haven’t said I’ve objected to any of the laws, simply that I have concerns over the mechanisms that bring them either in to place or perhaps, more importantly, to get them changed. Just because something bad hasn’t happened to date, doesn’t mean one can’t see flaws in a process. I’ve never had a car crash but I still wear a seatbelt.

To answer @Enda in the same post to save wasting space. I feel your last post maybe fell into the same trap as the remain side made during the referendum campaign. Namely, trying to answer every political argument with an economic one. It’s still happening today.

Worried about immigration - you’ll be worse off financially if you leave.

Worried about the democracy of EU - you’ll be financially worse off if you leave

Worried about he erosion of individual nations- you’ll be worse off financially if you leave

...and so it goes on.

 

I don’t understand how Nationals of a Country can ever be happy that laws their elected politicians have opposed too have still been passed. It’s irrelevant what impact the law had on people or how many of these cases there are.  

All countries in the EU are prisoners to their rules and laws. Leave and you will suffer.

So yes, we should have voted Remain.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I give you a recent example of the EU imposing new regulations with complete disregard to the feedback.

The ESMA asked for feedback on margin requirements for trading and how they could prevent big losses. All feedback given totally ignored and the changes are ridiculous. People will still continue to lose money. It will just take a lot longer. 

It anything traders will now risk a lot more capital to try and trade which will add to even bigger losses.

Makes no sense at all. 

[foreveryoung]

18 minutes ago, Enda said:

Okay, we're on different sides, so help me see things from your view. Can you give me your best example on an EU decision or regulation that the UK were outvoted on, and that affects your life?

Did they help us out when our banks got us into the shit and we went into recession??

Shared Wealth throughout Europe.  It costs us 10 Billion + a year for membership, including rebates.

Our own Laws can be overturned by the EU.

UK politician expenses scandal is nothing. You would cry your eyes out if you knew what them bureaucrats do with our money. Who regulates them, the top boys live like kings.

[Stevo985]

9 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I don’t understand how Nationals of a Country can ever be happy that laws their elected politicians have opposed too have still been passed. It’s irrelevant what impact the law had on people or how many of these cases there are.  

All countries in the EU are prisoners to their rules and laws. Leave and you will suffer.

So yes, we should have voted Remain.

Wasn’t it something like 2% of EU laws that have been passed were opposed by the UK?

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Wasn’t it something like 2% of EU laws that have been passed were opposed by the UK?

Yes but it’s the principle of it. 

[ml1dch]

14 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

All countries in the EU are prisoners to their rules and laws.

Who on earth is "their"?

I think you mean "our". The European Union is not the Commission, it's not the Parliament. It's the collective group of 28 countries, including (currently) the UK.

Incidentally, all of this is irrelevant. This is 2016's conversation. The vote is over. More people were convinced by your argument than ours. Well done.

So now tell us how you plan to make it work. You've got seven months left.

Edited August 3, 2018 by ml1dch

[Vive_La_Villa]

One thing I will say is I saw a recording of an EDI March the other day and heard the chanting in Worcester. It shocked me and I accept I have been a quite naive in recent years around what a lot of these people represent. Maybe because it’s been so long since I had anything to do with them so forgot how vile they could be.

Whilst I am no fan of the EU it does make me feel very uneasy that I voted the same way as these people. 

On that basis I wish I never voted.

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Who on earth is "their"?

I think you mean "our". The European Union is not the Commission, it's not the Parliament. It's the collective group of 28 countries, including (currently) the UK.

Incidentally, all of this is irrelevant. This is 2016's conversation. The vote is over. More people were convinced by your argument than ours. Well done.

So now tell us how you plan to make it work. You've got seven months left.

As I said at the end of the post that you have only partially posted. 

We should have remained.  The ‘EC’ will make sure we regret we left. 

[Enda]

8 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Did they help us out when our banks got us into the shit and we went into recession??

No... because the UK decided not to join the Eurozone or the ESM, so the ECB/EU couldn't do much with your banks.

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

The ‘EC’ will make sure we regret we left. 

 

No, they won't, once we've left with no deal, it won't be down to them. We'll be trading on WTO rules

Shall we have a referendum to leave the World too?

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, Enda said:

No... because the UK decided not to join the Eurozone or the ESM, so the ECB/EU couldn't do much with your banks.

That can't be true, we have lost our sovereignty.

[ml1dch]

15 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

 

 

Quote

As I said at the end of the post that you have only partially posted. 

We should have remained.  The ‘EC’ will make sure we regret we left. 

The country's own choices will make sure we regret it. The other countries don't have to do anything but let the contradictions of the UK's wishes punch each other in the face.

And yes, as you said - we shouldn't have voted to leave. But we did. And when you voted for that, there must have been "the thing you wanted". Nothing has changed since 2016. No options that we had then have been taken off the table.

Edit - and a small piece of advice, if you think we're now going down the wrong path, is arguing with people who agree with you on that point about why you want to leave the best course of action?

Edited August 3, 2018 by ml1dch

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

No, they won't, once we've left with no deal, it won't be down to them. We'll be trading on WTO rules

Shall we have a referendum to leave the World too?

That’s a good idea. Who needs the world! 

[Vive_La_Villa]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

The country's own choices will make sure we regret it. The other countries don't have to do anything but let the contradictions of the UK's wishes punch each other in the face.

Short term pain. Long term gain. The day others countries vote to leave, and believe me that day will happen. 

We’ll all be glad we left first.