Demitri_C Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, mjmooney said: The fact that nobody agrees, nobody knows what's going to happen, is the ultimate proof of why the stupid, stupid referendum should never have happened. How can you vote, when you don't know what you're voting for (or against)? I was never implacably opposed to leaving, but I wanted the debate and detailed analysis that is barely starting now, to have happened WAY in advance of any voting. And that voting should be in the form of a general election, with detailed manifestos, rather than a ridiculous yes/no question, with no detail. It was inappropriate and arguably unconstitutional, and should be scrapped immediately. Then we start over, and do the work properly. Problem is Cameron promised it, he would have been a complete fool if he did not deliver that promise. He tried to please the people and it backfired massively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, ml1dch said: We still are being told that now. Often by the same people who said that it wouldn't be difficult at all. Indeed. The entire thing was a confidence trick by those looking to gain, surrounded by some morons, pulled on an ignorant public fed nonsense for decades. And it still is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Problem is Cameron promised it, he would have been a complete fool if he did not deliver that promise. He tried to please the people and it backfired massively No, he tried to please his own party troublemakers. He didn't give a shit about 'the people'. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Problem is Cameron promised it, he would have been a complete fool if he did not deliver that promise. He tried to please the people and it backfired massively He didn't try to please the people. He wanted to appease/fend off the anti Europe brigade in his own party and see off the threat of UKIP. A strong leader could have done that without the need to hold a referendum. Unfortunately he was about as strong as jelly although in comparison to Theresa May he looks like Geoff Capes (or Eddie Hall for the younger ones amongst us). Having held it though he should have trumpeted the pros of staying in Europe. Instead he went with project fear and played right into the leave campaigns hands. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 Project Fear was a cross referendum tactic. All the Leave shouting about it being a Remain thing doesn't change that. Leave played up things to be fearful of as much as Remain, see Farage stood in front of a huge billboard designed to make it look like a hoard of brown people were coming in, or much talk of Turkey joining, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 24 minutes ago, mjmooney said: The fact that nobody agrees, nobody knows what's going to happen, is the ultimate proof of why the stupid, stupid referendum should never have happened. How can you vote, when you don't know what you're voting for (or against)? I was never implacably opposed to leaving, but I wanted the debate and detailed analysis that is barely starting now, to have happened WAY in advance of any voting. And that voting should be in the form of a general election, with detailed manifestos, rather than a ridiculous yes/no question, with no detail. It was inappropriate and arguably unconstitutional, and should be scrapped immediately. Then we start over, and do the work properly. I agree with what you say but only because the referendum in the form we had was ridiculous. - The STUPID referendum should never have happened. A not so stupid, not so stupid referendum should be something we aspire towards imo. Deference to the greater intelligence or the powers that be is a national cultural obstacle that has got us to where we are now. A truly informed debate on the role of nationality within a global economy/ global society is the last thing people in power want to happen because it would make people question why we do things the way we do them in the first place. For us, in our post-Brexit Mad Max dystopia, it may harm our economy or our liberty in ways we haven't even imagined yet. But try telling people in Nigeria or Syria or Yemen your taxes might go up or your petrol might become more expensive. People are happy to discuss Greece in the terms of the EU and whether they were wasteful, but is anyone asking whether it's right or just that whole countries can be bankrupted by corporate entities? Or that bureaucrats and companies around the world can squirrel money away offshore leaving everyone else to pick up the tab? I remember a bail out thing - I don't remember the sweeping reforms though. Or whether my labour being worth more than the labour of a man on the other side of the world - and his obviously less is a correct way of doing things. Everyone has known Primark Tshirts come out of sweatshops and I don't see the usury or exploitation of actual humans upsetting people so much that we see their sales dropping. It's NIMBYism on a global scale. And the people that set the agenda are happy to fan the flames of distraction as long as they can. Which model of living together in global peace and harmony would you like to live under? there's a good question that might actually get us anywhere. Lines on maps will be laughed at in the future, if we have one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 37 minutes ago, mjmooney said: The fact that nobody agrees, nobody knows what's going to happen, is the ultimate proof of why the stupid, stupid referendum should never have happened. How can you vote, when you don't know what you're voting for (or against)? I was never implacably opposed to leaving, but I wanted the debate and detailed analysis that is barely starting now, to have happened WAY in advance of any voting. And that voting should be in the form of a general election, with detailed manifestos, rather than a ridiculous yes/no question, with no detail. It was inappropriate and arguably unconstitutional, and should be scrapped immediately. Then we start over, and do the work properly. I don't see this. How could any promise in a general election manifesto have any bearing on reality when it concerns ideas that have to be agreed to by other parties in negotiations? The scenario you're describing would look just like now, with people pretending that others will accept their ideas when they can have no such clue. I would agree that this debate should have happened before invoking Article 50, but the election and the referendum campaign couldn't have contained detailed prospectuses about what the EU would allow in negotiations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Chindie said: Project Fear was a cross referendum tactic. All the Leave shouting about it being a Remain thing doesn't change that. Leave played up things to be fearful of as much as Remain, see Farage stood in front of a huge billboard designed to make it look like a hoard of brown people were coming in, or much talk of Turkey joining, etc. There was a touch of that by saying stay in and these terrible things will happen but leave and great things will happen - 350mill a week for NHS etc. The remain campaign was leave and these bad things will happen. Stay in and.....well there was nothing was there. No rejoicing of the benefits we get from remaining and potential added benefits further down the line. I thought the remain campaign was very down beat whilst leave was very much about these fantastic opportunities we will have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 It's very difficult to argue the positives of the status quo after years of austerity and the previous piss poor negotiation 'wins'. Pretty much the only thing you've got is negative campaigning to point out the flaws in the other team's argument. Even that was done in a half arsed lackluster manner. As I've said before, Cameron is getting off very very lightly with the job he's done. One of the worst in a very competitive field. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 The Remain campaign was crap (although I would temper that by saying it's quite hard to articulate why the EU is good thing in a snappy way to people who don't know even basic things of how international politics and trade works, and don't care to know), no doubt. But Leave had a huge whack of Fear in there. Immigration was a huge part of it all and that is fear fear fear. Add in Stupidity to Fear and you've got Project Dumb in full swing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 1 minute ago, chrisp65 said: It's very difficult to argue the positives of the status quo after years of austerity and the previous piss poor negotiation 'wins'. Pretty much the only thing you've got is negative campaigning to point out the flaws in the other team's argument. Even that was done in a half arsed lackluster manner. As I've said before, Cameron is getting off very very lightly with the job he's done. One of the worst in a very competitive field. . . . is the correct answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 20 minutes ago, Chindie said: Project Fear was a cross referendum tactic. All the Leave shouting about it being a Remain thing doesn't change that. Leave played up things to be fearful of as much as Remain, see Farage stood in front of a huge billboard designed to make it look like a hoard of brown people were coming in, or much talk of Turkey joining, etc. As long as they're buying FEAR who cares what the brand is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 53 minutes ago, mjmooney said: The fact that nobody agrees, nobody knows what's going to happen, is the ultimate proof of why the stupid, stupid referendum should never have happened. How can you vote, when you don't know what you're voting for (or against)? I was never implacably opposed to leaving, but I wanted the debate and detailed analysis that is barely starting now, to have happened WAY in advance of any voting. And that voting should be in the form of a general election, with detailed manifestos, rather than a ridiculous yes/no question, with no detail. It was inappropriate and arguably unconstitutional, and should be scrapped immediately. Then we start over, and do the work properly. Nobody ever thought for a second Brexit would win. Some morons even said they voted to leave for a laugh because knew it couldn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: It's very difficult to argue the positives of the status quo Which is the clever thing to me. Would ANYONE - given the chance to build a pan-european-union of their dreams - devise the EU as we had it? Or ANYONE - given the chance to implement some sort of democratic meritocracy - choose to stick with our constitutional monarchy in it's present form? (Not do we trust politicians anywhere to give us options we actually want or agree with - that's not what politicians are for these days.) Yet here we are with most of the country becoming entrenched in an ideological stance defending one over the other. When I presume no one would actually want either outcome given a free choice. It is insane. It is very clever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: There was a touch of that by saying stay in and these terrible things will happen but leave and great things will happen - 350mill a week for NHS etc. The remain campaign was leave and these bad things will happen. Stay in and.....well there was nothing was there. No rejoicing of the benefits we get from remaining and potential added benefits further down the line. I thought the remain campaign was very down beat whilst leave was very much about these fantastic opportunities we will have. Remain was very much stay in and nothing changes like everybody should be happy about that. The problem with that is many people were not happy with how things were for them and wanted change. Edit: The remain campaign really should have campaigned the push for EU reform a lot more. They were too complacent to bother. Edited March 1, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 All of these constructs are created by decades (or on the case of the state, centuries) of evolution. The EU is an ongoing evolution of a project that started 70 years ago as a way of getting Europe back on its feet and getting France and Germany to trade with each other after 2 wars trying to destroy each other. And not only is an evolution, it's an evolution with lots of hands pulling it in different directions. Meaning you have an odd compromise organisation. And compromises in those compromises - see the UK basically having a golden deal no-one else had through fighting our own interests in the organisation. It's a weird imperfect leviathan, and nobody would design it like that, because a designer would have a singular vision for it. Ironically the position the UK found itself in in May 2016 was pretty **** cushty as far as being an EU member went. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 12 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Nobody ever thought for a second Brexit would win. Some morons even said they voted to leave for a laugh because knew it couldn't happen. A family friend of ours did this. I can't even describe how **** stupid it is to do that. I don't see what it achieves in any scenario! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: A family friend of ours did this. I can't even describe how **** stupid it is to do that. I don't see what it achieves in any scenario! On the news they showed a young woman crying the day the results came out. She was saying she only voted because she was told it could never happen. Unbelievable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: A family friend of ours did this. I can't even describe how **** stupid it is to do that. I don't see what it achieves in any scenario! I work with someone who claims to have voted Leave because it would be 'interesting'. Once I picked my jaw off the floor I reminded them of the curse 'May you live in interesting times'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted March 1, 2018 13 minutes ago, Chindie said: I work with someone who claims to have voted Leave because it would be 'interesting'. Once I picked my jaw off the floor I reminded them of the curse 'May you live in interesting times'. It might be interesting if I blow my flat up tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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