The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

8 minutes ago, Rodders said:

I hope we end up better off, but I very much doubt it, I think a certain small number of people will benefit extremely well in levels of influence they can exert over the rest of us, and we will now have even fewer protections available to check that. 

I honestly don't think anyone has a clue.  A sudden downturn here or crash there or a war or whatever can make massive differences to how we perceive the current Brexit Britain.  There are too many variables to compute ((c) "Pam" fallout 4)),  some in our favour,  some not.  In defence of the leaves the predictions for 3rd World Wars and instant financial ruin were at best awful and childlike in nature.  The deal is important but we always knew this was going to cost us in that respect (Divorce from EU)

[Rodders]

what irritates me about the project fear tag - is ignoring the fact that we haven't left yet - we've only just triggered the article, and it's still 2 years plus until anything happens!

[Awol]

41 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

That last line has become the 'trump card' for Brexiteers in general.

You believed the EU was causing harm - fair enough, but you have no idea if leaving will cause more harm or not. None. 

There is nothing to celebrate, yes there is potential opportunity, but it is served with a healthy portion of uncertainty too. 

Instead of recognising this, the only response is to deflect and point at Remainers negativity. 

The mentality is scarily similar to the cult of the Donald. 

 

I have long believed the EU caused harm to the fabric of our democracy and now that cancer is going to be cut out.

The illusion of real choice between political parties that grew closer and closer in policy terms under EU membership can now be replaced with real choices.

 Whether you favour nationalization, industrial protection and real socialism, or a low tax, Singapore on steroids approach to the economy - or something else entirely - in a healthy democracy the electorate should have the choice to vote for a government that implements what they choose, free from outside interference.

Equally they should be able to sack every law maker in the land at election time and replace them with people they directly elect. That is the essence of democracy.

I totally reject the idea that we need a bunch of unelected arbiters in and from another country telling a sovereign people and parliament by fiat what is and is not permissible. 

I know both why I voted to leave and what benefits I think it will bring to the country. You are right that I don't know whether the overall economic impact will be positive, negative or broadly neutral over the long term, nor do the legions of economists who (falsely) claimed to know that before the referendum or the various talking heads in the media who still claim to.

So I do think there is something to celebrate, even though you don't. 

[StefanAVFC]

Within a week, certain papers can go totally OTT with their coverage of the 'terrorist' London attack (obviously a tragic and waste of life) yet lead with headlines like the below, with anti-EU people cheering them on.

 

[ml1dch]

8 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

In defence of the leaves the predictions for 3rd World Wars...

Something that nobody said would happen except in Boris Johnson's imagination.

Still, if a lie gets repeated often enough then people will start to believe it.

Farage could have just made that his slogan.

Edited March 30, 2017 by ml1dch

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

Still, repeat a lie often enough and people will start to believe it.

Brexit; The Motto.

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

Brexit; The Motto.

Looks like you were about 3 seconds quicker than my edit!

[Chindie]

The thing that gets me with the security threat is... Well... It's the easiest thing to spin around in the world.

'We'll not help you either'

You'd think you'd think for a moment before threatening the security of your own citizens to threaten someone else. But apparently not. Ersatz Thatcher isn't the sharpest.

[tonyh29]

20 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Something that nobody said would happen except in Boris Johnson's imagination.

Still, if a lie gets repeated often enough then people will start to believe it.

Farage could have just made that his slogan.

Do you have some quotes or a link where Boris Johnson said this ? 

(World war 3 ) 

[ml1dch]

4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Do you have some quotes or a link where Boris Johnson said this ? 

(World war 3 ) 

"It is very, very curious that the Prime Minister is warning us that World War Three is about to break out unless we vote to remain. I think that is not the most powerful argument I’ve heard"

So quoth the Mail and others, anyway.

[tonyh29]

15 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

"It is very, very curious that the Prime Minister is warning us that World War Three is about to break out unless we vote to remain. I think that is not the most powerful argument I’ve heard"

So quoth the Mail and others, anyway.

Ah ,Ok I must have misread the thread , my bad 

But google world war 3 and you get links to Cameron so presumably Johnson is responding to something the newspapers are saying Cameron said , (which Cameron denied saying on the tv debate)

maybe be it's like when people on here were quoting Rudd on something she didn't say , with the argument that although she didn't say it she must have briefed people privately otherwise they wouldn't have reported something that she didn't say ... and clearly she said it , even though she didn't 

 

 

Token text from article  

Quote

David Cameron has pleaded for Britain to stay in the EU to help prevent the Continent being ripped apart by another conflict

Edited March 30, 2017 by tonyh29

[wazzap24]

1 hour ago, Awol said:

I have long believed the EU caused harm to the fabric of our democracy and now that cancer is going to be cut out.

The illusion of real choice between political parties that grew closer and closer in policy terms under EU membership can now be replaced with real choices.

 Whether you favour nationalization, industrial protection and real socialism, or a low tax, Singapore on steroids approach to the economy - or something else entirely - in a healthy democracy the electorate should have the choice to vote for a government that implements what they choose, free from outside interference.

Equally they should be able to sack every law maker in the land at election time and replace them with people they directly elect. That is the essence of democracy.

I totally reject the idea that we need a bunch of unelected arbiters in and from another country telling a sovereign people and parliament by fiat what is and is not permissible. 

I know both why I voted to leave and what benefits I think it will bring to the country. You are right that I don't know whether the overall economic impact will be positive, negative or broadly neutral over the long term, nor do the legions of economists who (falsely) claimed to know that before the referendum or the various talking heads in the media who still claim to.

So I do think there is something to celebrate, even though you don't. 

I get where you are coming from, personally I think this whole issue of the EU controlling our lives is overplayed. It's been around for years, all this crap about straight bananas, the end of the 'pint' etc. 

Ultimately I ask myself how we got here. Was it becuase our democratically elected government thought 'you know what, we aren't sure about this EU thing anymore and we think it's only fair joe public has a say?'

Nope, we are here becuase said government decided to take a gamble in order to try and silence a minority of  Eurosceptics in their ranks, who were going to cause trouble for Cameron. 

It wasn't a major issue for the electorate (or not as major as some of the others), the GE was won becuase the Tories lied about being able to control immigration and Dave travelled the country with his laminated 'no money left' note. Labour were weak willed and pathetic. 

Then the vote came, amidst half a decade of Austerity and a fragile economy - during which time a lot of people have suffered. Economic conditions and a rising anti-immigrant sentiment created the perfect storm, for the perfect protest vote. 

The public were nothing more than political pawns in a plan that backfired spectacularly. That doesn't mean it won't work out in the end, but by design? not a hope in hell. 

We are now trusting pretty much the same people with negotiating the best deal for our population. Good luck with that. 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by wazzap24

[wazzap24]

As I was finishing that reply, my music playlist hit 'The Daily Mail' by Radiohead. 

lyrically on point for our elected officials. 

"The moon is high up on a mountain
The lunatics have taken over the asylum
Waiting on the rapture

Singing, "We're here to keep your prices down
We'll feed you to the hounds
To the daily mail, to get up, together"

You made a pig's ear, you made a mistake
Paid off security and got through the gate
You got away with it but we lie in wait, eh
Eh, eh

Where's the truth? what's the use?
I'm hanging around lost and found
And when you're here

innocent?
Fat chance, no plan
No regard for human life

You'll keep time, you've no right
You're fast to lose, you will lose
You jumped the queue, you're back again

President for life, love of all
The flies in the sky, the beasts of the earth
The fish in the sea have lost command"

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

Something that nobody said would happen except in Boris Johnson's imagination.

Still, if a lie gets repeated often enough then people will start to believe it.

Farage could have just made that his slogan.

Exactly, if the referendum taught me anything it is anything is now possible in this social media age with fake news or mis-truths banded about.

The problem is that people ask and will continue to ask Boris what he and his imagination think about it all.  He should not be allowed out on his own in my view but his are the statements that are heard on the radio or internet.

[jon_c]

Again on the unelected Europeans making our laws. You had a democratic vote on the election of the European parliament, ask Nigel Farage, it's the only position he's ever managed to get elected too.

Even then all laws still had to be passed through Westminster.

The only unelected parliament is the House of Lords, and that is British.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, jon_c said:

Again on the unelected Europeans making our laws. You had a democratic vote on the election of the European parliament, ask Nigel Farage, it's the only position he's ever managed to get elected too.

Even then all laws still had to be passed through Westminster.

The only unelected parliament is the House of Lords, and that is British.

I'm a Remainer obviously, I studied the EU a fair bit, so I have to be honest that the EU does have a democratic deficit. Whilst we vote for the European Parliament, it's powers aren't that much beyond a watchdog. It has to overview the EU in it's entirety and it has to effectively consider laws put in front of it. The Commission is the main problem. It's made of figures nominated by their respective countries (who then swear to act to the benefit of the EU as a whole - in essence they have to act as Europeans not 'British' or 'French' or whatever) so aren't strictly voted for. The Council is just representatives of each government, so voted for nationally.

It's not as bad as people suggest, but it's not good either.

[HanoiVillan]

On this:

Sun readers should feel angry this morning. Tom Newton Dunn, Amber Rudd, or probably both of them together, think that the movie you want to see is 'Bataclan 2: The Brits Knew In Advance, But Didn't Tell Anyone, Because Brexit'. 

Meanwhile, what Amber Rudd told the adults yesterday was:

'If, however, we leave the European Union without an agreement the default position is that we would have to trade on World Trade Organisation terms. In security terms a failure to reach agreement would mean our cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism would be weakened. In this kind of scenario, both the United Kingdom and the European Union would of course cope with the change, but it is not the outcome that either side should seek . . . There is no threat. I’m amazed that is even being thrown up ... The conversations I’ve had with fellow interior ministers [show] we need to have an agreement so that the UK can continue to keep the European continent safe and that the European continent can continue to help keep the UK safe. This is not going to be traded. This is something which needs to be negotiated, because there are different elements to it, that are going to have to be replaced and amended to arrive at that. But there is huge amounts of goodwill.'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/29/brexit-theresa-may-triggers-article-50-politics-live?page=with:block-58dbd02fe4b01ea2330bd458#block-58dbd02fe4b01ea2330bd458

Edited March 30, 2017 by HanoiVillan

[darrenm]

We're only safe as long as we have people who understand the necessary hashtags.

[itdoesntmatterwhatthissay]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

I'm a Remainer obviously, I studied the EU a fair bit, so I have to be honest that the EU does have a democratic deficit. Whilst we vote for the European Parliament, it's powers aren't that much beyond a watchdog. It has to overview the EU in it's entirety and it has to effectively consider laws put in front of it. The Commission is the main problem. It's made of figures nominated by their respective countries (who then swear to act to the benefit of the EU as a whole - in essence they have to act as Europeans not 'British' or 'French' or whatever) so aren't strictly voted for. The Council is just representatives of each government, so voted for nationally.

It's not as bad as people suggest, but it's not good either.

I felt our need to take EU regulation and implement its structure everywhere a real issue. It definitely blurred the lines of where the EU influences. eg - procurement.

The watchdog comment is also pretty interesting, I guess there are directives and regulations too. 
Though language is important too. If you look at the green deal and VAT, I believe our interpretation of the language was a little different from the ECJ's.

The worst thing about all of this is the four years wasted by people butting heads on issues that became too big for many to climb down from.
Good god I wish we'd have talked a little more about the EU.

[Awol]

14 minutes ago, jon_c said:

Again on the unelected Europeans making our laws. You had a democratic vote on the election of the European parliament, ask Nigel Farage, it's the only position he's ever managed to get elected too.

Even then all laws still had to be passed through Westminster.

The only unelected parliament is the House of Lords, and that is British.

This is really besides the point now but the Parliament couldn't write legislation it could only rubber stamp it.

The Commission is the body that drafts legislation and they are not subject to direct democratic accountability.

The UK Parliament has tried before to push back on EU legislation it felt was bad for the UK with zero positive outcomes. 

The EU is anti-democratic by design to prevent the public getting too close to the levers of power. Basically the Continental publics are not trusted to avoid electing fascists.