The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Genie]

6 minutes ago, tinker said:

It was exceptional circumstances, COVID, was this the mitigation for bending the rules? 

The main problem with the immigration is the perception that public services are put under extra pressure.

I know the NHS treat before being paid, so anyone that comes to the UK is covered for medical care (which I agree with in principle). This is a massive incentive, one we all take for granted growing up with free health care and cheap medication. 

The real problem is poor government policy, maybe  medical care insurance should be a prerequisite for immigrants entering the UK? ( Unless they are refugees)

 

 

Good point, one of the other things I remember seeing was that when Brits got treated abroad the money got charged back to the NHS in some Europe wide medical care scheme. The NHS was only actually recovering a fraction of the cost of treatment it had given to other EU nationals. I guess it was just too much hassle and the organisation wasn’t setup for recovering money.

 

[bickster]

58 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Didn't they all get together and agree to suspend it? Or were they forced into it because everyone was doing their own thing and it was becoming impossible to enforce the rule?

Not saying your necessarily wrong but it was an extreme time and the usual rules of play didn't apply for anyione really.

 

Schengen rules allow temporary closure of borders for threat to public / security reasons.

Outside of Schengen, no such rules apply. Not all EU members are members of the Schengen area

Nothing was changed to facilitate border closure.

[markavfc40]

And the hits just keep on coming.

 

[Genie]

I read an article in the Mirror earlier. Usual story about a brexit being a disaster and people changing their minds.

The final paragraph however was the best.

Quote

If whacky, lying Boris Johnson, opportunist turncoat Liz Truss, space-cadet Jacob Rees-Mogg and barmpot Nigel Farage are all in favour of something, how hard is it work out that it’s probably not a good idea?

Voters turn against Brexit as Boris Johnson’s lies leave Britain undone'

Out of interest does anyone know what The Mirror’s stance was on Brexit back in 2016?

[markavfc40]

26 minutes ago, Genie said:

 

Out of interest does anyone know what The Mirror’s stance was on Brexit back in 2016?

[Chindie]

Brexit. Still the amongst the worst political decisions made in the Western world in modern history.

[Genie]

More winning 

 

[sidcow]

I'm seeing more deniers saying the UK's woes are not due to this act of self harm but is due to Covid and The Ukraine War. 

Well no dick head. The rest of the G7 is set to perform way better than us than us under the same circumstances and bearing in mind we shut down later than most and got the vaccine earlier shouldn't we be less affected by Covid than them therefore be in an even better position? 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

I'm seeing more deniers saying the UK's woes are not due to this act of self harm but is due to Covid and The Ukraine War. 

Well no dick head. The rest of the G7 is set to perform way better than us than us under the same circumstances and bearing in mind we shut down later than most and got the vaccine earlier shouldn't we be less affected by Covid than them therefore be in an even better position? 

Yep. Just goes to show we did the worst of both worlds. 
 

Either you shut down early and longer and sacrifice the economy to save people’s lives. Or you do the opposite and more people die but the economy stays stronger (with the pros and cons of that up for debate)

We half arsed it and ended up doing neither. Loads of deaths and a shit economy. 
 

EDIT: I’ve realised I misread your post and you were making a different point. Oh well my point still stands

Edited December 6, 2022 by Stevo985

[tinker]

GDP was always going to drop leaving the EU, the sweetener was improved trade deals with the rest of the world, question is where are these deals and why aren't the ones we have good enough to make up for lost trade with the EU?

Problem really is there such a cluster of total mess ups from this government the lack of trade deals "tis but a scratch" 

 

[Genie]

I would love to see some prosecutions for the people who lied and passed it off as facts.

[Chindie]

18 minutes ago, tinker said:

GDP was always going to drop leaving the EU, the sweetener was improved trade deals with the rest of the world, question is where are these deals and why aren't the ones we have good enough to make up for lost trade with the EU?

Problem really is there such a cluster of total mess ups from this government the lack of trade deals "tis but a scratch" 

 

The problem with this is trade is fairly heavily dictated by geography, still. You tend to do business more readily with the countries you're closer to. When you have one of the largest markets in the world on your doorstep, you're going to struggle to make up the difference in lost/less efficient trade with that market by dealing with everyone else who is further away.

This remains true, even with the growth of digital/service driven trade.

We were never going to make up the shortfall in trade from the EU with deals with the rest of the world. And we also have to remember that said deals were going to be made in dreadful strategic circumstances - running around the world cap in hand desperate isn't exactly conducive to getting a great deal, these deals take years to put together usually because they're complicated and tense negotiations with thousands of angles and considerations to be made, and the smaller party usually comes off worst from it.

Again, this whole thing was spectacularly stupid. Sadly the people listened to the idiots promising the moon on a stick, or the small few businesses that might benefit for their own purposes, and as such we **** ourselves.

No amount of handshake deals with the Faroe Islands is changing that.

[tinker]

27 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The problem with this is trade is fairly heavily dictated by geography, still. You tend to do business more readily with the countries you're closer to. When you have one of the largest markets in the world on your doorstep, you're going to struggle to make up the difference in lost/less efficient trade with that market by dealing with everyone else who is further away.

This remains true, even with the growth of digital/service driven trade.

We were never going to make up the shortfall in trade from the EU with deals with the rest of the world. And we also have to remember that said deals were going to be made in dreadful strategic circumstances - running around the world cap in hand desperate isn't exactly conducive to getting a great deal, these deals take years to put together usually because they're complicated and tense negotiations with thousands of angles and considerations to be made, and the smaller party usually comes off worst from it.

Again, this whole thing was spectacularly stupid. Sadly the people listened to the idiots promising the moon on a stick, or the small few businesses that might benefit for their own purposes, and as such we **** ourselves.

No amount of handshake deals with the Faroe Islands is changing that.

I agree, to show the brexit voter's and supporters they were sold a lie is the trick and the way to do it, imo, is to question the politicians on the promised trade deals to make up for loss of EU trade. When the politicians start to the explain the difficulties, as you have pointed out, the penny will start to drop. 

If we continue to question the whole brexit process then we just go around and around in circles , if how Boris imagined it playing out would have happened then we would be in a good position, Boris was was foolish and the voters believed in him. 

[Xann]

The sellers will make up any old shit.

The buyers are actually living the disaster.

That's why they're quiet.

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, tinker said:

GDP was always going to drop leaving the EU, the sweetener was improved trade deals with the rest of the world, question is where are these deals and why aren't the ones we have good enough to make up for lost trade with the EU?

Problem really is there such a cluster of total mess ups from this government the lack of trade deals "tis but a scratch" 

 

When 27 countries negotiate a trade deal, in which they offer access to the richest market in the world. They will always be in a stronger position to dictate terms beneficial to themselves than a country negotiating on their own. The only decent deals we have now are the ones where countries agreed to roll over existing deals we had with the EU. Don’t think we have managed a single major deal that has been better.

[tinker]

8 minutes ago, meregreen said:

When 27 countries negotiate a trade deal, in which they offer access to the richest market in the world. They will always be in a stronger position to dictate terms beneficial to themselves than a country negotiating on their own. The only decent deals we have now are the ones where countries agreed to roll over existing deals we had with the EU. Don’t think we have managed a single major deal that has been better.

Your talking to the converted, we need to give the Brexit voters an escape route, a way to change their minds without admitting they was wrong. At the moment their entrenched in their belief it will come good and will risk further damage to their lifestyles and ours to proof they were right. 

It doesn't help that the press and media are running scared of criticising the whole shit show brexit has become. 

[sidcow]

25 minutes ago, meregreen said:

When 27 countries negotiate a trade deal, in which they offer access to the richest market in the world. They will always be in a stronger position to dictate terms beneficial to themselves than a country negotiating on their own. The only decent deals we have now are the ones where countries agreed to roll over existing deals we had with the EU. Don’t think we have managed a single major deal that has been better.

This. It's utter fantasy to believe another county will offer better trade deals to the UK alone than they will to the substantially bigger EU. 

I mean why would they?   The EU is going to buy 10 times more stuff from them and they've got 10 times the numbers of buyers within the EU for their exports. 

I remember distinctly Brexiteers saying we would be first in their queue for a bumper US trade deal. 

There was a story in the press last week about no trade deal in sight with The USA and the Biden administration put it to the bottom of the pile and didn't see it as any kind of priority. 

Oven baked was touted about a lot and years later they're still scavenging around trying to stitch something together whilst our balance of payments collapses. 

They lied, they have sold the nation down the swanny because they didn't like forriners. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by sidcow

[Genie]

The only slim hope was a trade deal with the US, but even before that was kicked into touch our media were slating the much lower standards they had for things like food production and storage.

As @tinker mentioned, we need to move forward with something that doesn’t rub the Brexiteer noses in their mess. It needs to be some kind of “deal” with the EU that isn’t EU membership in name, but is close to it in reality. Something can be sold as is getting the good bits without all the bad bits.

It looked like Truss’s plan to spend her way out of a recession was at least funded but some alignment with Europe but she didn’t last long enough to work out the details. It also looked momentarily like Sunak would try something similar as the media reported a Swiss style arrangement but he has bottled it and stepped back from it.

Until our leaders admit Brexit hasn’t worked out we’re going to continue our slide down the world powerhouse league table.

[meregreen]

How many of those who actively worked to achieve Brexit, are involved with hedge funds, or have large amounts of cash deposited in tax havens. The EU are clamping down heavily on tax avoiders, particularly those who keep their financial dealings cloaked in secrecy by using havens. There’s a whole scandalous can of worms that will one day be exposed regarding these people. Brexit was, to many of them, simply a way to avoid that scrutiny. 

[Genie]

Quote

Nobody with “the luxury of hindsight” would repeat the government’s £120m festival of Brexit project, the culture secretary has admitted.

Speaking at a parliamentary committee on Tuesday, Michelle Donelan was told that the event, officially known as Unboxed: Creativity in the UK, had been a “monumental cock-up”.

——————

“But you have got to recognise as secretary state coming in – and we take it, this is not your fault – that this was a monumental cock-up of gargantuan proportions, and this should never have been allowed to come to fruition.”

In March, ahead of the event, a scathing report by the culture committee said the project was a £120m waste of money and heading for failure, with government handling characterised as “irresponsible”.

A monumental waste of money that could be seen to be a disaster before it happened and was facilitated by incompetent politicians.

It’s not a festival of Brexit, is IS brexit personified.

Link

Edited December 8, 2022 by Genie