The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

How can they possibly be happy with how it's gone?

Some builders may have been remain. As an example. It works for small subsets of the population

Some people could also be lying

Some people could also be monumentally stupid, didn't understand the first time and still don't understand but think they do

SOme people have a fundamental belief that to rejoin would be undemocratic given the referendum result

Just some reasons, there will be others

[Genie]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

SOme people have a fundamental belief that to rejoin would be undemocratic given the referendum result

I think that’s the argument that annoys me the most. 

We did it, we followed through on the vote and it’s been a disaster with no upsides in sight. Why is it undemocratic to continue on a path to more disaster? 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Genie

[sidcow]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

I think that’s the argument that annoys me the most. 

We did it, we followed through on the vote and it’s been a disaster with no upsides in sight. Why is it in democratic to continue on a path to more disaster? 

We elect our leaders every 4 years. Nothing wrong with another referendum. 

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

We elect our leaders every 4 years. Nothing wrong with another referendum. 

Of course not. And I imagine that if a party garners enough internal support to include that in a manifesto and then wins an election on that manifesto, then a referendum will happen.  And if / when all that happens, I can't imagine that anyone will really complain that democracy isn't doing what it should. 

But it can't / won't happen outside of the above. 

[Genie]

Would there be another referendum if it was part of a party’s manifesto?

I’d be avoiding a referendum like the plague as it causes so much anger and division.

If I were any party leader I’d be saying (for example) a vote for Labour in the GE is a vote for single market or other special trading agreement with Europe (eg. Swiss or Norway type deal).

[tinker]

The only party that can't attack the current Brexit arrangement is the Tories, it's their deal. 

As it stands the  Brexit deal appears to be adding further costs to imported goods.

Until this "Brexit added inflation" is widely reported then remain voters will just hide behind "everyone's got higher costs, or it's Putin's fault not Brexits"

The media are running scared of any anti Brexit reporting for fear of being labelled "moaning remainers"

Ireland's in a mess and Scotland's started to kick off as well. 

Welcome to a Tory made hell.

[Genie]

We are seeing how UK is the only G7 country not predicting growth. The only major nation not back to pre-covid conditions. 

Brexit and the general Tory incompetence are the reason. 

It feels like it’s gathering pace. Lots and lots of polls all reporting the public opinion we need to revert back to some degree.

[Genie]

another one 

Whoever takes over from the Tories is in an amazing position to grow the economy. From such a low starting position the only way really is up.

If they can ride out the noisy racists and do something sensible with Europe the UK would surely rapidly move from left to right on that chart above. The size of the opportunity is huge.

[tinker]

2 hours ago, Genie said:

another one 

Whoever takes over from the Tories is in an amazing position to grow the economy. From such a low starting position the only way really is up.

If they can ride out the noisy racists and do something sensible with Europe the UK would surely rapidly move from left to right on that chart above. The size of the opportunity is huge.

It's going to be hard sell. The way I understand it is Free trade means free movement of labour and it also means we have to follow EU labour laws and a string of other laws. 

[Genie]

9 minutes ago, tinker said:

It's going to be hard sell. The way I understand it is Free trade means free movement of labour and it also means we have to follow EU labour laws and a string of other laws. 

True, but with 40-50,000 more people arriving on dinghy’s each year than when we were in the EU we can at least point to that as something which should theoretically come down.

[tinker]

3 minutes ago, Genie said:

True, but with 40-50,000 more people arriving on dinghy’s each year than when we were in the EU we can at least point to that as something which should theoretically come down.

Yea that could help, I believe none EU immigration was always a bigger problem in the eyes of Brexshitters 

[Genie]

Just in

Quote

UK net migration hit 504,000 in the year to June - the highest figure ever recorded, The Office for National Statistics (ONS) estimates.

The rise is driven by people arriving legally from outside the EU and the resumption of post-pandemic travel.

Link

Maybe this bus was parked behind the red one? 

[LondonLax]

26 minutes ago, tinker said:

Yea that could help, I believe none EU immigration was always a bigger problem in the eyes of Brexshitters 

Personally I think it goes back to the 2004 expansion of the EU to include Central and Eastern European countries. 

The legacy EU members were allowed to put restrictions on freedom of movement for these new member states and most countries did (Germany for example did not allow freedom of movement to them for many years). 

The U.K. government had no restrictions (other than a restriction on welfare access) and became the de facto destination of choice for workers from Poland, Czech, Hungary etc

I think the U.K’s own prediction of the numbers expected were orders of magnitude lower than the numbers who actually arrived and things like council services / amenities were not adequately catered for.

Maybe all this frustration could have been avoided if the U.K. had managed that first influx better than they did?

[Genie]

That was one of the many myths of EU membership, you have no control over who comes and what they are entitled to once they arrive.

It sounds like from @LondonLax it’s not the case. We saw during the pandemic plenty of EU countries being picky over who could and couldn’t enter.

[Genie]

Imagine how bad these things would be WITHOUT Brexit giving us full control of our borders and £350m a week for the NHS!

The dream holiday story probably would have been $50k is it wasn’t for Brexit so she should be grateful.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

That was one of the many myths of EU membership, you have no control over who comes and what they are entitled to once they arrive.

It sounds like from @LondonLax it’s not the case. We saw during the pandemic plenty of EU countries being picky over who could and couldn’t enter.

I think that's a bit misleading. They agreed a temporary ban on non essential travel due to the pandemic, essentially suspending free movement. Have they not restored the usual system?

[Genie]

13 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I think that's a bit misleading. They agreed a temporary ban on non essential travel due to the pandemic, essentially suspending free movement. Have they not restored the usual system?

They have, but it showed that individual countries have control over their own borders and can make decisions without EU blessing. In fact the EU were quite upset in some of the cases but were powerless to do anything.

 

[desensitized43]

47 minutes ago, Genie said:

They have, but it showed that individual countries have control over their own borders and can make decisions without EU blessing. In fact the EU were quite upset in some of the cases but were powerless to do anything.

 

Didn't they all get together and agree to suspend it? Or were they forced into it because everyone was doing their own thing and it was becoming impossible to enforce the rule?

Not saying your necessarily wrong but it was an extreme time and the usual rules of play didn't apply for anyione really.

 

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Didn't they all get together and agree to suspend it? Or were they forced into it because everyone was doing their own thing and it was becoming impossible to enforce the rule?

Not saying your necessarily wrong but it was an extreme time and the usual rules of play didn't apply for anyione really.

 

My memory tells me individual countries started doing their own thing, and I also recall the EU were pressuring them to reopen borders but they did not immediately do it.

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

They have, but it showed that individual countries have control over their own borders and can make decisions without EU blessing. In fact the EU were quite upset in some of the cases but were powerless to do anything.

 

It was exceptional circumstances, COVID, was this the mitigation for bending the rules? 

The main problem with the immigration is the perception that public services are put under extra pressure.

I know the NHS treat before being paid, so anyone that comes to the UK is covered for medical care (which I agree with in principle). This is a massive incentive, one we all take for granted growing up with free health care and cheap medication. 

The real problem is poor government policy, maybe  medical care insurance should be a prerequisite for immigrants entering the UK? ( Unless they are refugees)