blandy Posted November 22, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Genie said: We all know this “training our own” isn’t going to work/happen for a number of reasons. Especially if the labour is expensive once trained. I mean it's complicated, really complicated, but no, I don't think we do all know training our own citizens isn't going to work. Essentially, there's two sources of wealth making - Labour (people) and intellect/expertise/knowledge. The first of those, people, is to an extent the domain of the Far East and India and other nations where labour costs are low, conditions are poor and people are plentiful. Then there's the issue of machines and robots and whatnot. "Labour" is never going to be an area where Britain is able to take a place towards the top of preferred places for companies to go to get stuff made. So that leaves the "intellect" side of things. That's where the UK has some advantages. The deep well of science and academia, Engineering expertise, Arts and culture, Finance - all that stuff. And all of that creativity and knowledge, it all does require companies and the nation training people in those areas, one way or another. Where there's a particular problem at the moment is in areas like Amazon and a lot of small and medium sized businesses, who between them either have no desire to treat people well, or have not got the resources to train people up. Amazon need legislating against, and the middle and small businesses need help specifically pointed at training programmes. And that's where Government (not the tories, obviously) can help and could make things better. It would be a big sea change, but it's (IMO) not a case of "it just won't work". It could work, but they have to be brave enough to try. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 (edited) 51 minutes ago, blandy said: I mean it's complicated, really complicated, but no, I don't think we do all know training our own citizens isn't going to work. Essentially, there's two sources of wealth making - Labour (people) and intellect/expertise/knowledge. The first of those, people, is to an extent the domain of the Far East and India and other nations where labour costs are low, conditions are poor and people are plentiful. Then there's the issue of machines and robots and whatnot. "Labour" is never going to be an area where Britain is able to take a place towards the top of preferred places for companies to go to get stuff made. So that leaves the "intellect" side of things. That's where the UK has some advantages. The deep well of science and academia, Engineering expertise, Arts and culture, Finance - all that stuff. And all of that creativity and knowledge, it all does require companies and the nation training people in those areas, one way or another. Where there's a particular problem at the moment is in areas like Amazon and a lot of small and medium sized businesses, who between them either have no desire to treat people well, or have not got the resources to train people up. Amazon need legislating against, and the middle and small businesses need help specifically pointed at training programmes. And that's where Government (not the tories, obviously) can help and could make things better. It would be a big sea change, but it's (IMO) not a case of "it just won't work". It could work, but they have to be brave enough to try. How do they do it though specifically (realistically)? They need to throw a shit load of money at apprenticeships… money we don’t have. I would think for next few years cheap foreign labour is exactly what we need, then when back on our feet we look to phase it out by training our own. Edited November 22, 2022 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Just now, Genie said: How do they do it though specifically (realistically)? They need to throw a shot load of money at apprenticeships… money we don’t have. I would think the for next few years cheap foreign labour is exactly what we need, then when back on our feet we look to phase it out by training our own. Cheap foreign Labour is great if you’re in a highly skilled industry and feel you will not be competing with that labour for wages. Not so great if you’re a working class / blue collar worker who sees your wage bargaining power under cut by cheap foreign labour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 1 minute ago, LondonLax said: Cheap foreign Labour is great if you’re in a highly skilled industry and feel you will not be competing with that labour for wages. Not so great if you’re a working class / blue collar worker who sees your wage bargaining power under cut by cheap foreign labour. The UK’s issue / shortage is low skilled, cheap labour which has traditionally come from overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Just now, Genie said: The UK’s issue / shortage is low skilled, cheap labour which has traditionally come from overseas. That shortage would naturally drive wage growth in those rolls as employers compete for the smaller pool of employees available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, LondonLax said: That shortage would naturally drive wage growth in those rolls as employers compete for the smaller pool of employees available. But it’s holding the economy back overall as there’s thousands of vacant jobs which need doing. No point having wage growth for a few but many businesses struggling overall because they can’t operate. Shops, bars, hotels, factories, restaurants etc need people now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 22, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2022 23 minutes ago, Genie said: They need to throw a shit load of money at apprenticeships… money we don’t have. It's just not true that "we don't have money for training people". I mean just to address some recent things. The government (and opposition) have both been talking about the need for growth and growing the economy. Investment which gets a return is a sound way to help with that. So investment in training, which means more and better products and outputs, which bring in more taxes, create more jobs, increase productivity and competitiveness and so on. Investment in R&D and training is something that has to increase - whether at the "cost" of reduced dividends for shareholders, or of tax breaks for Oil companies and polluters, or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted November 22, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted November 22, 2022 The problem is we have a large amount of people at working age who can get by on welfare rather than work, which offers them no advantage with the minimum wage being so low. The only way to break this cycle ( in a welfare state) is to make it worth while for people to go to work by raising the minimum wage well above benefit payments. The EU have tried to stop this race to the bottom of working standards but our leaders seem hell bent on the UK being a low wage low skills economy. (Despite what they say) The bonfire of EU regulations they keep talking about will include the working time directive, holiday entitlements and paternity pay, time off to care for dependants and other such laws which get in the way of cheap labour. All these actions fly in face of a highly skilled labour force earning high wages, they aren't telling the people the truth. On the subject of low skilled workers being immigrants, this is also a fallacy, there are loads of doctors , engineers and highly skilled immigrants being brought into the UK who are also driving the wages down at the skilled end of the labour market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 22, 2022 Author Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2022 18 minutes ago, tinker said: there are loads of doctors , engineers and highly skilled immigrants being brought into the UK who are also driving the wages down at the skilled end of the labour market. I don't think that's the case. Skills shortages are driving wages more in an upward direction in those areas, in my anecdotal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted November 22, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted November 22, 2022 3 hours ago, blandy said: I don't think that's the case. Skills shortages are driving wages more in an upward direction in those areas, in my anecdotal experience. I have seen this with the trades, plasterer's, brickies , plumbers and so on. But with engineering I have seen companies actively advertising roles abroad at lower rates. Doctors are being recruited from the sub continent ( it's a issue for these countries losing doctors they have trained up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 1 minute ago, tinker said: I have seen this with the trades, plasterer's, brickies , plumbers and so on. But with engineering I have seen companies actively advertising roles abroad at lower rates. Doctors are being recruited from the sub continent ( it's a issue for these countries losing doctors they have trained up) I’ve said it before but from my own experience they (trades) are the big winners of brexit. A lot of the cheap eastern European workers who worked twice as hard for less money are gone. They are raking it in. Obviously for the other 99% of the population we have to pay far more to have work done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ml1dch Posted November 22, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted November 22, 2022 Danish Crown to build £100m gammon plant in UK Quote Danish Crown, the European pork producer, is to build a £100m gammon and bacon factory in the UK despite facing a mountain of post-Brexit red tape. Make your own damn jokes. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 7 hours ago, tinker said: The problem is we have a large amount of people at working age who can get by on welfare rather than work, which offers them no advantage with the minimum wage being so low. The only way to break this cycle ( in a welfare state) is to make it worth while for people to go to work by raising the minimum wage well above benefit payments. The EU have tried to stop this race to the bottom of working standards but our leaders seem hell bent on the UK being a low wage low skills economy. (Despite what they say) The bonfire of EU regulations they keep talking about will include the working time directive, holiday entitlements and paternity pay, time off to care for dependants and other such laws which get in the way of cheap labour. All these actions fly in face of a highly skilled labour force earning high wages, they aren't telling the people the truth. On the subject of low skilled workers being immigrants, this is also a fallacy, there are loads of doctors , engineers and highly skilled immigrants being brought into the UK who are also driving the wages down at the skilled end of the labour market. Do we really have that many people on benefits rather than working? this "large" number you speak of isnt really that many. Especially when you take into account people on benefits also working. I blame Jeremy Kyle and shows highlighting the ones ripping off the system for portraying a situation of complete mass piss takers. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted November 22, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted November 22, 2022 35 minutes ago, Nicho said: Do we really have that many people on benefits rather than working? this "large" number you speak of isnt really that many. Especially when you take into account people on benefits also working. I blame Jeremy Kyle and shows highlighting the ones ripping off the system for portraying a situation of complete mass piss takers. I can only judge it by people I know of and there are quite a few that play the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 37 minutes ago, Nicho said: Do we really have that many people on benefits rather than working? this "large" number you speak of isnt really that many. Especially when you take into account people on benefits also working. I blame Jeremy Kyle and shows highlighting the ones ripping off the system for portraying a situation of complete mass piss takers. There are also a large group who have jobs but it doesn’t pay enough to support a family and they need benefits to make up the shortfall. The so called ‘working poor’. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 10 hours ago, tinker said: I can only judge it by people I know of and there are quite a few that play the system. And I suppose it seems logical to extrapolate this across the whole population. However the people that you know of taking the piss is a small percentage of the people you know In general I assume. Back to one of your original points, absolutely this government would love to rip up all workers rights. The American hire and fire system, with no holiday and contributed benefits I.e insurance is their dream. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 Wait til you see what gets outsourced via the likes of Amazon Web Services? It ain't just going to be call centres. My company has finished trialling their tech. We're scaling down our UK data centre footprint, no new appointments in the UK, our job vacancies are all in Hyderabad. That's after we reallocated resources from the UK to Germany, Italy and Spain post the Farage and Brexit PM treachery. Now comes more AI, automation and modular approaches to manufacture and construction. Fewer and fewer jobs will pay, and the Tory filth are taking away your NHS and privatising schools and are perfectly happy with food banks. So painful to watch. As part of Europe a fall in standards of living could have been managed and offset somewhat. Now we're skint, in hock and frankly f**ked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 I think it’s fair to say almost everybody agrees they don’t like the current Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 23, 2022 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2022 Quote Outside the single market but with a closer trade and security relationship than today What on earth is this option, why give people options that can't exist. A closer trade relationship with the EU is being IN the single market In fact most of those poll options are headscratchers, especially the last two, which pretty much amount to the same thing A new kind of relationship.... utter fantasy with no actual specifics That poll is awful, the first two options are possible, the others are beyond stupid 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted November 23, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted November 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, bickster said: What on earth is this option, why give people options that can't exist. A closer trade relationship with the EU is being IN the single market In fact most of those poll options are headscratchers, especially the last two, which pretty much amount to the same thing A new kind of relationship.... utter fantasy with no actual specifics That poll is awful, the first two options are possible, the others are beyond stupid Agree. But is again shows people know they've been sold a pup. They're essentially saying they want what they were sold which is an impossibility and been proven as such. Would be interested to see the same people polled with a binary back in or stay out option. I reckon a really big chunk of those leavers would be back in again now. It's hard to fathom the original remainers who are now pink and red. How can they possibly be happy with how it's gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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