The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

Just now, bickster said:

It's also what a certain Herr Farago said we should go for BEFORE the referendum

Pick yer poison, is Farage a) a liar, b) incompetent and stupid and didn't realise what Norway actually had, c) a nuance of option a, is acting for a third party wherein the ends justify all means, or d) a variation on c, except he is acting alone for his own benefit.

Or a fishbowl of the lot?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Pick yer poison, is Farage a) a liar, b) incompetent and stupid and didn't realise what Norway actually had, c) a nuance of option a, is acting for a third party wherein the ends justify all means, or d) a variation on c, except he is acting alone for his own benefit.

Or a fishbowl of the lot?

[Genie]

I suspect the “Swiss deal” is being tagged because it sounds like a special arrangement. We’re the UK and obviously very special. We aren’t going to go for an off the rack membership, we’ll be getting a bespoke, tailored deal like the Swiss presumably has (let’s face it, 99% of people haven’t got a clue).

It’s better than the non starter of “rejoining the EU”. 

[Rolta]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

 Bring it on, throw Toblerones at them

"For many of us, it's the defining issue of why we are in politics."

These people are **** insane pricks with the weirdest, lamest chip on their shoulder. They're living in a world of their own mad paranoias.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

I suspect the “Swiss deal” is being tagged because it sounds like a special arrangement. We’re the UK and obviously very special. We aren’t going to go for an off the rack membership, we’ll be getting a bespoke, tailored deal like the Swiss presumably has (let’s face it, 99% of people haven’t got a clue).

It’s better than the non starter of “rejoining the EU”. 

Ah. The Rorschach gambit.

We haven't rejoined the EU, the EU has joined us on a very special basis.

[Xann]

7 minutes ago, Rolta said:

"For many of us, it's the defining issue of why we are in politics."

Tax evasion.

[Genie]

The reasons for not doing a deal would all be along the lines of

- It’s un-democratic, not the will of the people, sovereignty, principles, bullies, etc etc

Nothing that actually paying the bills or keeps the **** lights on.

Maybe in 2016 we thought we could afford a bit of a downward blip if it went badly. We aren’t in such a luxurious position in 2022.

[Genie]

Just now, Chindie said:

We haven't rejoined the EU, the EU has joined us on a very special basis.

Exactamundo!

 

[stuart_75]

1 hour ago, desensitized43 said:

They do sensible deals to mitigate the negative effects of non-membership. For instance, both of the countries you mention are members of the EFTA and EEA which makes them basically members but without the voting rights. The sticking point was and has always been freedom of movement. Both of those countries have to accept that as terms of their deals, but the Tories decided it was definitely not something we would be considering. Why you might ask? Because, reasons. Definitely nothing to do with xenophobia in the right wing press.

 

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

Norway basically pays in slightly less to the pot, but otherwise gets most of the benefits of being a full member, with some notable exclusions, but they also don't have a vote in deciding the rules they must abide to.

It's what we should have done if we decided we had to leave the EU. We'd be out, but maintain a lot of the benefits. Unfortunately the sticking point for Brexiteers, too many foreigners, is non-negotiable.

Thanks for the replies. I guess it boils down to the freedom of movement being the biggest sticking point stopping us from mirroring those agreements.

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, Xann said:

Tax evasion.

Na, it’s plain old garden variety nationalism. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by LondonLax

[sidcow]

This is just the beginning, and little glimpses are coming out whilst a a Brexit Centric party is in power with a Brexiteer Prime Minister in situ. 

This will gather speed. It will accelerate when we have a non Brexit Centric party in power. I reckon we'll have another referendum in the next 4 years and we'll go back in. 

On what basis though, who knows. 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, sidcow said:

This is just the beginning, and little glimpses are coming out whilst a a Brexit Centric party is in power with a Brexiteer Prime Minister in situ. 

This will gather speed. It will accelerate when we have a non Brexit Centric party in power. I reckon we'll have another referendum in the next 4 years and we'll go back in. 

On what basis though, who knows. 

Liz and Kwasi were clearly going to do some kind of European alignment.

Now Hunt seems to also set his sights on frictionless trade to boost the economy.

Thank goodness!

I would be surprised if there was another referendum though. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Genie

[sidcow]

Just now, Genie said:

Liz and Kwasi were clearly going to do some kind of European alignment.

Now Hunt seems to also set his sights on frictionless trade to boost the economy.

Thank goodness!

I would be surprised if there was another referendum though. 

I think most non mental / inherently racist people now realise it was a terrible act of self harm. 

If the polls continue to show people want back in I think Labour will go for it. 

I'm actually suprised that an anti Farage style character hasn't arisen to lead a return campaign to be honest. 

[Genie]

Just now, sidcow said:

I think most non mental / inherently racist people now realise it was a terrible act of self harm. 

If the polls continue to show people want back in I think Labour will go for it. 

I'm actually suprised that an anti Farage style character hasn't arisen to lead a return campaign to be honest. 

I was thinking similar today actually, why someone is collating all these polls and screaming from the rooftops about it.

Labour can make it part of their manifesto at the next GE and if they win they can do it, and not have to divide the country with another referendum.

Will the Tories be able to get anything off the ground by the next GE? 

[bickster]

9 hours ago, sidcow said:

If the polls continue to show people want back in I think Labour will go for it. 

I'm not so sure to be honest, Starmer seems to be jumping into an anti-immigration abyss right now. Only yesterday he was telling business that they shouldn't be planning on cheap labour from abroad

[Rolta]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

I'm not so sure to be honest, Starmer seems to be jumping into an anti-immigration abyss right now. Only yesterday he was telling business that they shouldn't be planning on cheap labour from abroad

By coincidence I went on the Independent just after reading this post, and the main headline is 'Labour Plans to Relax Immigration Rules.' 

(I haven't read it, but wanted to share the —thrilling of course—sequence of events)

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

Only yesterday he was telling business that they shouldn't be planning on cheap labour from abroad

Which is the right thing to say. For all kinds of reasons.  It's not anti immigration to believe that either. The important word is "cheap".

[bickster]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Which is the right thing to say. For all kinds of reasons.  It's not anti immigration to believe that either. The important word is "cheap".

Yep, I'm with him on the cheap bit, you can say that without reference to from abroad. He connected them, they don't need to be nor in my mind should they be.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Yep, I'm with him on the cheap bit, you can say that without reference to from abroad. He connected them, they don't need to be nor in my mind should they be.

I think, politically, they do need to be connected. Unfettered business would love to fill their vacancies with workers from abroad who would accept cheap wages and thus avoid having to pay wages which need to be higher because of the cost of living. It's a specific "solution" business has used in the past and it doesn't help anyone really, other than owners and shareholders. Brexit or no Brexit, workers should be paid better and have better protections. That means not exploiting the willingness of east Europeans or Asians to put up with poor conditions because they are still better than they'd get back home.

I mean if we think that nurses should be paid more, for example, then the notion of recruiting (say) Polish nurses who will work for the current salary and thus hold down overall pay is surely wrong?

[Genie]

39 minutes ago, bickster said:

I'm not so sure to be honest, Starmer seems to be jumping into an anti-immigration abyss right now. Only yesterday he was telling business that they shouldn't be planning on cheap labour from abroad

Yeah, I’m really quite surprised by the announcement yesterday. 

We all know this “training our own” isn’t going to work/happen for a number of reasons. Especially if the labour is expensive once trained.