The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[sidcow]

What really **** me off is all those (Boris) bloody LIARS who said we had oven baked trade deals ready to go. Just utter bullshit designed to pull people into the leave vote knowing full well those deals did not exist, but they just getting away absolutely scott free. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by sidcow

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, sidcow said:

What really **** me off is all those (Boris) bloody LIARS who said we had oven baked trade deals ready to go. 

They never said that

[blandy]

12 minutes ago, Genie said:

Why would they need the opposition support if they have a majority government? 
I can understand why full fat EU membership isn’t an option but some other alliance should be a priority.

At the moment they're not a majority government. They're trying/hoping to become one. In a camapigh to get to that position, if they say "we're gonna [join some form of EU entity]" the Tories will counter that with "see, they're remainers, don't respect the will of the people in a referendum...distract from the economy and the NHS and the utter sh*tshow they've made of everything" and it will impact adversely on Labour's chances of getting to be a majority government. It would be an awful campaigning approach by Labour.

So they have to tread more gently. They can and should highlight how the Troy Brexit is nothing like what was promised, how it's made everything worse, but they're limited, realistically in what they can propose as a start to solving the problems of the tories. That means saying some nice things about "better relations with the EU, sorting out the NI stuff and so on..." In due course, if they get in, if they get better relations with the EU and all that, then by that time the Country might have moved on to the view that "yeah, we need to go in the single market, or the Customs Union, or even the full EU, but that time isn't now. And the idea that we have another referendum on the EU, only 3 years (as of now) since we left is really not the best of times with all the other problems (any) government has on its plate. It would be just as divisive and full of lies  and rancour as the last one.

[sidcow]

10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

They never said that

Oven ready? 

[bickster]

Just now, sidcow said:

Oven ready? 

The oven ready trade deal johnson campaigned on in 2019 was the withdrawal agreement with the EU not other entities outside of the EU

[Chindie]

Just now, sidcow said:

Oven ready? 

He said he had an exit agreement 'oven ready'.

They carefully didn't say much about deals outside that, besides they'd be really good. They haven't been, shock horror. You knew they were struggling when they were crowing about doing a deal with the Faroe Islands.

[Stevo985]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Oven ready? 

I was joking, in a way. 
 

I seem to remember that they TECHNICALLY didn’t say that. Even though the implication was clear

[sidcow]

Just now, bickster said:

The oven ready trade deal johnson campaigned on in 2019 was the withdrawal agreement with the EU not other entities outside of the EU

He's still a bloody liar 

 

 

[Davkaus]

5 years later this is still an unbelievable read

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped

Quote

 There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside -David Davis

10 October 2016

Quote

David Davis now says: ‘Nobody has ever pretended this will be easy. I have always said this negotiation will be tough, complex and at times confrontational’

People should have been locked up for this.

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, sidcow said:

He's still a bloody liar 

 

 

Hardly breaking news that one  

[Wainy316]

47 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

Same map with the key, confirms that pale colour is “neither” rather than “slightly agree” or whatever.

edit - actually not sure it does, but whatever there’s a bit more info on this version

 

My main take from that is it's time to nuke Lincolnshire.

[Genie]

16 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

5 years later this is still an unbelievable read

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped

People should have been locked up for this.

Yeah, forget about televising Boris bullshitting in the HoC, him, Liam Fox, Davis Davis and all the others should be on trial asked to explain their statements which led the country into disaster. 

[Genie]

36 minutes ago, blandy said:

At the moment they're not a majority government. They're trying/hoping to become one.

Yeah, my statement is based on the assumption Labour will form a majority government and need to prioritise removing the elephant from the room. 

Quote

if they say "we're gonna [join some form of EU entity]" the Tories will counter that with "see, they're remainers, don't respect the will of the people in a referendum...distract from the economy and the NHS and the utter sh*tshow they've made of everything" and it will impact adversely on Labour's chances of getting to be a majority government. It would be an awful campaigning approach by Labour.

This is why I hope they are being clever. Ruling out rejoining but quietly working on a deal that is “rejoin” under a different name. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Genie

[ml1dch]

39 minutes ago, Genie said:

Why would they need the opposition support if they have a majority government? 

For the reason in my post that you quoted. If you need me to expand though, because parliaments and governments don't last forever. 

The first question that is going to be asked at any renegotiation, big or small, is going to be "how do we know that we won't be doing this all over again in five years if you lose the next election?"

They have no interest in ripping things up and starting again every time the wind blows in a slightly different direction in Westminster, so won't be doing much until there is cross-Parliamentary consensus.

Also, what's in it for them? Their main interests in the UK are security and commerce. The former doesn't seem like it will really be impacted significantly and with the latter they have full access to the UK market while seeing their UK competitors having their market access restricted. Where's the win in making a one-sided arrangement more equal?

Obviously there are long-tern strategic benefits in having the UK more inside the tent, but right now there's nothing really in it for them.

[Genie]

7 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Also, what's in it for them? Their main interests in the UK are security and commerce. The former doesn't seem like it will really be impacted significantly and with the latter they have full access to the UK market while seeing their UK competitors having their market access restricted. Where's the win in making a one-sided arrangement more equal?

I’m not sure about this part, the economy is tanking harder than Russia’s. A shrinking economy impacts everything. That’s a pretty major incentive not to go with the flow.

Any new government MUST address the state of our economy, the only way is to get something from Europe / EU. 

Labour will know they’ll face most of the shit the Tories are working with if they don’t change something. The can’t blame it on the Conservatives forever whilst the debt rises, and public services collapses due to lack of funds. Major companies continue their exodus from the UK etc etc.

Theres a MAJOR incentive and the next government are blessed with knowing the solution. The just need to be clever about how they apply it.

Quote

…but right now there's nothing really in it for them.

I could not disagree with this statement more  

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Genie

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, Genie said:

I’m not sure about this part, the economy is tanking harder than Russia’s. A shrinking economy impacts everything. That’s a pretty major incentive not to go with the flow.

Any new government MUST address the state of our economy, the only way is to get something from Europe / EU. 

Labour will know they’ll face most of the shit the Tories are working with if they don’t change something. The can’t blame it on the Conservatives forever whilst the debt rises, and public services collapses due to lack of funds. Major companies continue their exodus from the UK etc etc.

Theres a MAJOR incentive and the next government are blessed with knowing the solution. The just need to be clever about how they apply it.

I'm not sure if I'm just using the wrong words, but you still seem to just be saying reasons why the UK might want to.

The barrier is still that those things that would be good for the UK aren't necessarily things that are good for all the other counties that have to agree. And they won't, as things currently stand.

[bannedfromHandV]

48 minutes ago, blandy said:

At the moment they're not a majority government. They're trying/hoping to become one. In a camapigh to get to that position, if they say "we're gonna [join some form of EU entity]" the Tories will counter that with "see, they're remainers, don't respect the will of the people in a referendum...distract from the economy and the NHS and the utter sh*tshow they've made of everything" and it will impact adversely on Labour's chances of getting to be a majority government. It would be an awful campaigning approach by Labour.

So they have to tread more gently. They can and should highlight how the Troy Brexit is nothing like what was promised, how it's made everything worse, but they're limited, realistically in what they can propose as a start to solving the problems of the tories. That means saying some nice things about "better relations with the EU, sorting out the NI stuff and so on..." In due course, if they get in, if they get better relations with the EU and all that, then by that time the Country might have moved on to the view that "yeah, we need to go in the single market, or the Customs Union, or even the full EU, but that time isn't now. And the idea that we have another referendum on the EU, only 3 years (as of now) since we left is really not the best of times with all the other problems (any) government has on its plate. It would be just as divisive and full of lies  and rancour as the last one.

Exactly, get into power and then steer the narrative ultimately and hopefully resulting in a second referendum taking place.

Give the same people the same choice but this time with some lived experience of the challenges associated and a transparent and easy to digest run down of all the known pros and cons of the decision.

 

[Genie]

Just now, bannedfromHandV said:

Exactly, get into power and then steer the narrative ultimately and hopefully resulting in a second referendum taking place.

Give the same people the same choice but this time with some lived experience of the challenges associated and a transparent and easy to digest run down of all the known pros and cons of the decision.

 

Personally I wouldn’t do another referendum, I’d avoid it like the plague.

Hopefully they are already thinking about the “UK deal” where we don’t rejoin but get a lot of the benefits. Yes we’ll give them money but we get much more money as a result, quick reminder we’re going from a position of losing £100 billion a year. Oh, and Brussels won’t be telling us we can’t pump shit into our rivers. Winning!

[limpid]

33 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

My main take from that is it's time to nuke Lincolnshire.

It'll be underwater within 30 years. Build a wall.

[bannedfromHandV]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

Personally I wouldn’t do another referendum, I’d avoid it like the plague.

Hopefully they are already thinking about the “UK deal” where we don’t rejoin but get a lot of the benefits. Yes we’ll give them money but we get much more money as a result, quick reminder we’re going from a position of losing £100 billion a year. Oh, and Brussels won’t be telling us we can’t pump shit into our rivers. Winning!

I just don’t think a situation exists where we can go back to enjoying the full benefits of EU membership without being an EU member.