The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, BigJim said:

More complicated now than then, but that's part of the reason why many of those that voted in originally have voted out now: the system was never supposed to get so inflated and complicated.

The referendum was stupid only if you think it was valid to remain in an increasingly federalist union against the wish of the people which was increasingly clear from democratic election results (partly prompting the revolting Tories). Cameron's hand was forced by the workings of our democratic political system. You can lament the outcome, as you clearly do, but you can't argue against the process without sounding like a bit of a fascist (not helped actually by making out you're more intelligent than the plebs).

I knew you'd say that.

The thing had to become more complex to develop the single market. You have to introduce legislation to ensure that standards are maintained across borders. Extrapolate that out to everything else. Consider that Britain usually (actually near invariably) agreed with these changes.

Federalism has been done to death. It's a red herring. That you raise it says a lot about your stance and your ignorance of this topic. Suffice to say, it ain't happening even if any EU politicians want it (which I dont doubt some do).

I struggle to see the fascism in believing a representative democracy should do the job they're elected to do.

I also don't think I'm more intelligent than the 'plebs'. More educated than some, certainly, and more informed in this field than many, but not necessarily more intelligent than many.

[cyrusr]

7 minutes ago, BigJim said:

Here we go again: The Leave vote was mainly xenophobic thickos who don't understand the bigger picture. The Remainers clearly thought the issue through like the thoroughly decent, intelligent, cosmopolitan chaps they are.

Apologies cyrusr, it's not just you. But I think you can all do a bit better than that.

Actually I was saying that it was the swing vote that was the caused by immigration, not the majority of the leave vote. I cannot say why people voted leave, but the majority asked on tv, radio, polls etc. Say immigration was a big factor. However even the basic stats say otherwise. The leave campaign misled on the issue, the remain ignored it and as always the facts get mixed in there. I imagine there were remain voters who did it for stupid reasons, but is certainly clear that a number of voters did vote to say "immigrants out" or "I hate politician" as people have said that. 

Heres the important point: not all people vote for the same reason. As I said in the quote you have included in your post, there are people who have considered the issues and come to their own views regardless of the rubbish coming out of the politicians mouth, but you have just taken the defensive action because I said some people have voted for leave because of immigration, not all and actually probably not a majority either. Those are the ones that I feel have focuses on issues which won't be fixed by leaving the EU, as the stats show majority of immigration comes from outside the EU. 

8 minutes ago, BigJim said:

More complicated now than then, but that's part of the reason why many of those that voted in originally have voted out now: the system was never supposed to get so inflated and complicated.

Now this point, whilst I don't agree with, is a valid point and can understand concern. Very much in agreement with @Chindie though on the point of why the complication has happened.

[CastleBromVilla]

51 minutes ago, krisagg75 said:

I'am a plum

[BigJim]

26 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I knew you'd say that.

The thing had to become more complex to develop the single market. You have to introduce legislation to ensure that standards are maintained across borders. Extrapolate that out to everything else. Consider that Britain usually (actually near invariably) agreed with these changes.

Federalism has been done to death. It's a red herring. That you raise it says a lot about your stance and your ignorance of this topic. Suffice to say, it ain't happening even if any EU politicians want it (which I dont doubt some do).

I struggle to see the fascism in believing a representative democracy should do the job they're elected to do.

I also don't think I'm more intelligent than the 'plebs'. More educated than some, certainly, and more informed in this field than many, but not necessarily more intelligent than many.

Federalism a red herring? So say you, but you also don't doubt some want(ed) it?? Damn right they do(did).

Well of course it ain't happening now, the whole project will fall apart. But to assert that it hadn't been heading in that direction is a bit naive.

It's very sharp of you to have ascertained my stance, I wasn't sure I had made it clear, oh and and thank you for pointing out my ignorance on the topic. 

Edit. I almost forgot. "A representative democracy should do the job they're elected to do." I think you mean a representative government. Yes, and one of its attributions is to call a referendum on matters of constitutional importance where the electorate has clearly demonstrated its desire for change.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by BigJim

[Fairy In Boots]

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

[colhint]

would you not say then cyrusr, given the money, access, establishment, politics etc the remain had in their favour, that the leave campaign were either smarter or more intelligent

[villa4europe]

ive had a drink...

watching central news some fat horrible thing in dudley saying its the best day in her loyfe cos she'll now get a council house

part of my reasoning for voting leave was thinking that people like her are ****, going forward the non working class are in trouble, we need such a strong government, there will be a labour shortage, we need to plug it with people who think children are a career choice, im not convinced we'll get it

part of my decision to vote leave was nothing to do with immigrants or racism or xenophobia it was to do with a hatred of our own people who are happy to let people come here and work hard doing jobs they consider beneath them, its time to pull some **** socks up, got 2 kids so you dont want to mop tescos floors for minimum wage because someone else will do it, couldnt give a ****, hopefully those days are gone

[jon_c]

4 minutes ago, colhint said:

would you not say then cyrusr, given the money, access, establishment, politics etc the remain had in their favour, that the leave campaign were either smarter or more intelligent

At campaigning? Yes. Also, Murdoch backing helps.

[Rodders]

4 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

 

What the collapse and loss of jobs and funding affecting multiple sectors due to loss of ties funding grants, be it Universities, schools and building projects is just noise? Not one word removed on the Leave side ever bothered to articulate a coherent explanation for where that money is coming from. Its not noise its well informed despair at the imminent atrocity that will befall industries and their workers. Mass redundancies and the loss of workers to other EU countries because of some eurocrat concern. Righto.

[jon_c]

2 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

ive had a drink...

watching central news some fat horrible thing in dudley saying its the best day in her loyfe cos she'll now get a council house

I'm not in Dudley but my local housing association is EU funded, so good luck trying to get a new council house because the Tories won't put money to it.

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, colhint said:

would you not say then cyrusr, given the money, access, establishment, politics etc the remain had in their favour, that the leave campaign were either smarter or more intelligent

In the same way a shrimp is smarter than a mollusc? Yes.

They tuned in to what a lot of people wanted to hear and said it, whilst juggling kittens.

Which is admittedly impressive for shrimp.

 

 

 

[BigJim]

29 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

Now this point, whilst I don't agree with, is a valid point and can understand concern. Very much in agreement with @Chindie though on the point of why the complication has happened.

But why the complication happened is not relevant to the discussion. My point was that the union transformed itself into a bureaucratic monster that the original voters could never have imagined in their worst nightmare.

[Rodders]

9 minutes ago, colhint said:

would you not say then cyrusr, given the money, access, establishment, politics etc the remain had in their favour, that the leave campaign were either smarter or more intelligent

 

I'd say it speaks more to the problems of articulating sensible if dry logic against emotional but dramatic appeals to some sort of intangible frustrations felt by those who have been screwed by UK DOMESTIC politicians.

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, BigJim said:

Federalism a red herring? So say you, but you also don't doubt some want(ed) it?? Damn right they do(did).

Well of course it ain't happening now, the whole project will fall apart. But to assert that it hadn't been heading in that direction is a bit naive.

It's very sharp of you to have ascertained my stance, I wasn't sure I had made it clear, oh and and thank you for pointing out my ignorance on the topic. 

 

Again, you don't understand. I'm getting exceptionally tired of this.

My apologies to any readers that have seen this before.

The EU is made up of thousands of voices. Whole sections of it are made of people that hate it. Significant elements of its organisation are nominated by national governments. And so and so forth. Some of those people undoubtedly want a USE. Some of those people want to burn Brussels to the ground. Some of those people want to develop the EU towards closer but not complete union. Some of those people would rather a return overtly and solely economic union. They all can't agree. Even if the entire commission decides on an EU state (which, as said above, won't happen), the Parliament reviews it and won't agree, because lots of the Parliament is there to be opposed to the organisation. They have the power to remove the Commission also.

That's before you get to the sovereignty nitty gritty. Which wouldn't be broken.

It's a red herring. And always has been.

But you'd know all that, because you're not ignorant, wouldn't you?

[cyrusr]

11 minutes ago, colhint said:

would you not say then cyrusr, given the money, access, establishment, politics etc the remain had in their favour, that the leave campaign were either smarter or more intelligent

They ran a better campaign because they were smarter than the remain and played on people's fears. You had Cameron and Osbourne being exceptionally smug and thought they had it in the bag. Corbyn was acting like a wet fish and clearly couldn't be bothered and the leave politicians shouting them all down. You throw enough mud, it sticks. Don't agree with it in the slightest but that's the way politics has gone because we have to chose between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

[Ingram85]

13 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

Congrats, now some unelected toff will not just have a say but will dictate things that directly affect you and everyone else without any EU protection to stop them going too far.

[StefanAVFC]

15 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

[villakram]

13 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

Monarchy.

House of Lords.

Whitehall.

Cognitive dissonance.

or you simply have a strong dislike of non-brits.

[BigJim]

34 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

Actually I was saying that it was the swing vote that was the caused by immigration, not the majority of the leave vote.

Have read your post again and I apologise for taking it the wrong way. It's just that I find it very distasteful that so many posters have been questioning the intelligence of Leave voters. 

[cyrusr]

22 minutes ago, BigJim said:

But why the complication happened is not relevant to the discussion. My point was that the union transformed itself into a bureaucratic monster that the original voters could never have imagined in their worst nightmare.

See House of Lords. See the cabinet with Boris Johnson there "just cos" and other useless members.  See FIFA. See the olympics. See the democratic and republican parties nomination process (now that is just a farce). See the local councils. These are all other examples on nonsense monsters that have power to make binding decisions over us or their country/sport and eat up a huge amount of money for no benefit to the country/people/sport.

As has said before by others, at least I have voted for someone to sit in the EU parliament, I haven't for the House of Lords. Whilst the Commons can veto, it takes a lot of effort and negotiations to get through the Lords who are appointed when the sitting government need to shore up their numbers. If we want to sort out bureaucratic monsters maybe look closer to home as well?

11 minutes ago, BigJim said:

Have read your post again and I apologise for taking it the wrong way. It's just that I find it very distasteful that so many posters have been questioning the intelligence of Leave voters. 

No worries. I get why you would get irate at that, like when people say that remain voters are bitter and arrogant intellectuals who think they know best   (Not saying you have said that, but people have been certainly saying it all day and it does gripe me as well!)