The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[TheAuthority]

The next New Yorker magazine cover.

Edited June 25, 2016 by TheAuthority

[TheAuthority]

As an Englishman working in New York I've been drilled continually all day about Brexit. This Article is one of the best I've read - apologies as it is rather long.

Quote

An A to Z of Brexit. Cathartic fragments, pessimistic conjectures.

A is for Alliance: The Leave coalition seems to be made up of at least six different strands, with widely different motives and demographics. There are the blue rinsers — Tory heartland Eurosceptics, mostly now quite old, motivated by dreams of British exceptionalism and an ancient tribal cause. There are left-behind Labour — mainly in the north of England, Midlands,and Wales, motivated by their belief that immigration has inflamed the pressures of austerity. There is the Far Right, racists who hated immigration in the first place. Those are the biggest groups. Then there are also the leftists voting for “Lexit” (motivated by dislike of the EU’s implementation of neoliberalism), the Gove-ite ultra-neoliberals (motivated by dislike of the EU’s non-implementation of neoliberalism), and last and frankly also least the tiny rump of original UKIP, genuine sovereignty wonks like Alan Sked. In other words, the half of the country voting Leave was and is very divided in motive if sadly united in action. Pleasing all, or even most, will be impossible.

http://tomewing.tumblr.com/post/146420642411/obsolete-units-surrounded-by-hail

My oldest and best friend back in the UK is pretty distraught. He saw the problems with the EU but ultimately came down on the side of remain. He sees a country that has made a decision based not on reason and rational consideration of the facts but made a decision that will ultimately lead to a more divided world.

[AVFCforever1991]

6 hours ago, krisagg75 said:

to right.the weird thing is that the english s%$ voted out but the scottish s%$ voted in.spunktrumpet

 

Not really that surprising, everything that the English are the for, the Scottish will be against  

No but I think it was more to do with they would rather give more powers to the EU, rather than Westminster even more than they currently are...

Edited June 25, 2016 by AVFCforever1991

[jon_c]

Seriously, news on for less than three minutes this morning. Leave voter saying he's sending white feathers to Cameron and Osborne and he wanted to leave because 'we won the war' 

If the media weren't trying so hard to be impartial, this sort of xenophobic little Britain crap wouldn't be allowed on the news completely unfettered. 

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, Rodders said:

 

What the collapse and loss of jobs and funding affecting multiple sectors due to loss of ties funding grants, be it Universities, schools and building projects is just noise? Not one word removed on the Leave side ever bothered to articulate a coherent explanation for where that money is coming from. Its not noise its well informed despair at the imminent atrocity that will befall industries and their workers. Mass redundancies and the loss of workers to other EU countries because of some eurocrat concern. Righto.

Because that's all going to happen for a fact isn't it? 

Certain industries we have such as Agriculture & Fishing have been held back. Other industries such as manufacturering have deeper problems than the EU granted but we now have the power as a nation ourselves to redress this. Of course it's going to require political will but there's no cop out of its EU to hide behind as so many of our governments have done. Banking won't shift abroad overnight London is a world city like NY and Toyko who aren't in the EU, Frankfurt is Mickey Mouse in comparison it will take upwards of a decade for it to be a rival. 

[ismail-villa]

3 hours ago, jjaacckk91 said:

I really do hate to say this, but it looks on the surface like uk science in general will suffer, and funded research in particular will take a massive hit. 

The government funding for scientific research has been proportionally low compared to other eu countries, and the eu has been a large contributor to British research.

Of course the govt could use money that would go to the eu to cover this shortfall, but I'd be surprised as I don't think they'd see it as a vote winner.

But as a fellow scientist, I would say this, keep on studying and see how you feel about the subject after a few years of study, you may still love it and want to go fully into research(in which case you can see what's available, even emigrate on a working visa if necessary) ,or you may decide that research isn't for you(like I did), but either way with a science degree you'll always have open doors, and other options if things don't work out exactly the way you planned.

Cheers for the response mate. But yeah I'll need to reconsider my options most likely. Even the placement options are rather limited now. 

[jon_c]

48 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

London is a world city like NY and Toyko who aren't in the EU, Frankfurt is Mickey Mouse in comparison it will take upwards of a decade for it to be a rival. 

New York doesn't have access to the EU market but it obviously is used for access to the American market.

Toyko, again is for access to the Asian markets. 

I don't know about you but I hope to still be alive in ten years time, and beyond that. 

It wouldn't surprise me if banking stays in London, but there is no way they won't be asking our government for all sorts of hand-outs, tax breaks and deals, as a precursor to staying. Of course they will, we've already established that bankers are a bunch of lying, unscrupulous b**tards. I mean one of them is the leader of UKIP.

 

[Ingram85]

I think lf London or Scotland do move for independence then me and the wife will be joining them. 

EU funding withdrawal from all aspects of the UK's economy will cripple us, I think a lot of leave voters will be shocked at just how much we were propped up by it and in what ways we receivef it i.e housing, small businesses etc... the money we save by going it alone will not cover it and if anyone thinks the self motivated/interested May/Osborne/Johnson/Gove or Farage types will use the money we do have for making the lives of the ordinary working class people better then they need their heads looking at.

I don't want to live in a place with people that take pride in 'little Englander, us v them' mentality and fear a future where Britain looks after Britain and screw the rest of the world! I hate tribal thinking and this is what this referendum has become about. 

Any healthcare assistant jobs going down south?

 

[Nabby]

Found this a good read 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/divided-britain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster

[blandy]

18 hours ago, BigJim said:

But Leave/Remain was not really about understanding something, something measurable and with a scientific basis like your example. It was much more to do with gut feeling. How people felt they are being treated, how they feel they want to be governed. There are no right or wrong answers.

"At its heart, Leave was fuelled by a festering sense of betrayal among legions of working class voters in places that have long felt overlooked by what they perceive as a political and media elite in cosmopolitan London." 

 http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/liveblogs/2016-06-24/#5848624949da48ad06f93fcf903d4c77

Nothing to do with plonkers being unable to understand things like what you can.

I've seen that sort of thing said quite a bit in the media and I thinks it's only partly true at best. I go with the betrayal aspect totally. I feel the same. Over the past 40 years large parts of the UK have been shafted and lied to by politicians from both parties and a coalition. While it's harmful that they are not trusted, it's entirely of their own doing, collectively. The part I take issue with is that it's only working class folk, after all there are loads of wc people in London, Manchester, Liverpool, norn iron, Bristol, Scotland etc, all those places voted remain, while most of the tory middle class shires all voted out. It's not a class thing, IMO.

What you could argue is that places with stronger locally based government voted remain and the rest voted leave (Wales being the exception). The parts of the UK that aren't London and the south East, with the exception like I say of those areas with their own strong locally based govt feel in most cases that the UK is run not for them, that they have no say or control and are not treated fairly are not respected. That they pay too high a price and get nothing back from politicians miles away.

I'm certain that despite some racism, 52% of the country didn't vote leave directly because of immigrants from the EU. They voted out because they have no control over what has gone on in their towns and they don't like it.  Whether it's fracking , large numbers of foreign workers coming to an area BUT NOT ALSO THE SUPPORT for the local infrastructure, fishing, steel, industrial changes. In all these things local people see the costs but the benefits go elsewhere.

There are people who voted leave for single reasons - sovereignty seems to be one such. There are people who've been obsessed by it for 40 years, but mostly I reckon the result was down to people from the middle class and working class from all areas who got a chance to tell the fool Cameron that they don't trust or like him or his govt or the establishment of the UK and EU.

[AlwaysAVFC]

15 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Apparently I (and my kids) are eligible for Irish citizenship... 

I imagine I could as well as my Mum was born in Ireland, I think all you need is a parent/grandparent to be Irish isn't it?

[Guest av1]

4 minutes ago, AlwaysAVFC said:

I imagine I could as well as my Mum was born in Ireland, I think all you need is a parent/grandparent to be Irish isn't it?

Judging by their football team, i think as long as you have watched the commitments you're in. I had a weekend in Dublin about 10yrs ago so I'd be a shoe in. 

[tonyh29]

8 hours ago, tom_avfc said:

Having seen nothing other than the headline polling statistics for age range voting, i accept that you may know more than I do on the turnout figures which if true are disappointing.

As someone who has generally supported the actions of our current government in the past I now find myself completely alienated by the current situation in the major political parties. I am generally pro EU and voted remain which makes me not inclined to support a Boris/Gove Brexit government. On the other hand we have a Corbyn led Labour party which I have major disagreements with, I now find myself intrinsically against both sides of our great political situation.I'm sure there are many like minded people but I genuinely wonder what we are supposed to do other than sit worried shaking our heads at the current state of affairs with no input into any debate possible.There now seems to be no moderate in between to these two extreme viewpoints.

I realise that I have made no point whatsoever in the above but just felt that I needed somewhere to get my current disillusionment and disappointment at what is going on off my chest.

We are certainly in for some interesting times ...

Cameron resigning delays article 50 until October , I think that was a deliberate move to give both sides time to cool down and come up with a compromise , it's a game of poker now but who has the royal flush and who has 2 pair remains to be seen!!

Corbyn should  survive his no confidence vote and I still think it's possible we end up with a snap general election and a labour government as a result 

 

uk politics could get a shake up as well as Europe

 

[Guest av1]

18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Corbyn should  survive his no confidence vote and I still think it's possible we end up with a snap general election and a labour government as a result 

 

 

Traditionally i have voted labour, but I don't see them back in government for a while. They seem intent on ripping themselves to peices.

[blandy]

18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

We are certainly in for some interesting times ...

Cameron resigning delays article 50 until October.....

I still think it's possible we end up with a snap general election and a labour government as a result 

He  promised he'd do article 50 straight away. The big hollow fibber.

Labour has nil chance if there's a snap election. Absolutely zero.

Christ our system is utterly broken.

[jon_c]

^ There is absolutely no chance of a Labour government with Corbyn as leader. He seems like a decent principled guy, but he is a terrible politician. And by that I mean the duplicitous game playing needed to win an election. He'd be a good cabinet member, but not the leader.

[markavfc40]

23 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Corbyn should  survive his no confidence vote and I still think it's possible we end up with a snap general election and a labour government as a result 

 

It's a bit early to be on the sauce isn't it mate.

I can't see there being an election any time soon but if there is then I see zero chance of a Labour victory. They are in a disarray, wiped out in Scotland and look like prime to lose a load of votes to UKIP in Labour heartlands if there was an election soon.

The Tory party are a mess but Labour are a shambles. Their failure to provide a strong opposition has allowed the Tories to get away with murder. The Tories should be prime to be voted out but Labour are nothing like ready to take advantage and won't be any time soon.

[jon_c]

I was at work less than two hours this morning before I heard someone yell, "f*** off back to Poland then" at the news, and you know what it's not that unusual day to day. I really shouldn't have been surprised an out vote won.

[villa4europe]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

He  promised he'd do article 50 straight away. The big hollow fibber.

Labour has nil chance if there's a snap election. Absolutely zero.

Christ our system is utterly broken.

Yep,Mir there was a snap election I can see the turnout being horrific and the split of voting being widespread leaving us with even more of a shambles, we'd have a major party needing to pair up with the SNP and even after that I'm not sure if they'd be anywhere near the line

there'd be such a split in parliament that there'd be no guarantee of anything being agreed, basically the opposite of what we need right now

[Fairy In Boots]

9 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

 

9 hours ago, villakram said:

Monarchy.

House of Lords.

Whitehall.

Cognitive dissonance.

or you simply have a strong dislike of non-brits.

Where have I said i'm happy about these institutions? because I dislike the EU for the reason it's democratically unaccountable don't you think I dislike these also?

Using this as an excuse to negate the fact the EU is undemocratic is silly, it's the same logic as letting everyone take you for a mug because one person already does. We address the situation, now the EU has gone, we should tern our newly emboldened political power on these establishment's. But no 900k Millennials are discovering democracy for the first time and instead of being emboldened are signing a petition because they disagree with the 17.5 million who said leave just 24 hours ago.  

Whether you agreed with the decision or not is now irrelevant, the die is now cast, what we should do is use this as a chance to make something better.