The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Chindie]

Anyway... EU leaders already bearing the steel teeth behind the consultatory words. Absolutely going to bend over backwards for us, certainly. Totally not looking to make an example in whatever way they reasonably can.

[limpid]

5 minutes ago, CastleBromVilla said:

Can't say that, it's racist, despite immigration being the root of a number of the country's problems, problems which remain had no answer to.

I wonder who the leavers will hold accountable when the number of migrants stabilises / increases over the coming years? I'm pretty sure Boris can honestly claim that he never said that there would be fewer immigrants.

Ah of course. Whoever their newspaper says is at fault. No thinking required.

[One For The Road]

12 minutes ago, CastleBromVilla said:

You can put at that project fear crap to one side now, it's all finished. That isn't really going to happen, is it? There might me a bit of a bump, but its certainly not going to destroy our economy. It's people like you, flapping and blowing things out of proportion that makes things worse.

"People like me", aren't stupid enough to think all the experts that predicted an economic disaster were just "scaremongering"  A word that became so synonymous with the mostly xenophobic leave campaign that it was spouted by all and sundry. Mostly by people who didn't have a clue what it meant. In addition, as a proud Brit and a proud European, I am disgusted at the reasons given for leaving. They make no sense and I believe that one day, even the idiots will realise that, but it will too late and we will all suffer.

Edited June 24, 2016 by One For The Road

[CastleBromVilla]

1 minute ago, V01 said:

Leave also had no answer. 

 

I'm disappointed in the result but it's done now, time to move on and hope for the best. Hopefully the EU will collapse and save us from ourselves.

They did. Leave the EU. The system becomes fairer and we say who comes here and who doesn't, rather than being told.

[V01]

Leave the EU as a plan for dealing with immigration is on the Sherwood level of planning. It's an aim, there is no plan there. 

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

1 minute ago, CastleBromVilla said:

They did. Leave the EU. The system becomes fairer and we say who comes here and who doesn't, rather than being told.

That isn't an answer. That doesn't tell us at all what they plan to do about immigration. If we want to trade with the EU, we'll have to accept free movement, so what are Leaves actual plans to deal with immigration?

[brommy]

Just now, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

That isn't an answer. That doesn't tell us at all what they plan to do about immigration. If we want to trade with the EU, we'll have to accept free movement, so what are Leaves actual plans to deal with immigration?

I didn't know every country that trades with the EU has to accept 'free movement'.

[BigJim]

16 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Ah so you just don't want to comprehend the question then. Cool. Nobody knows who things will turn out so it's fine.

You have to understand something to make a decision on it. You can't go on gut feel. That way lies madness. Unfortunately we're well down that road.

But Leave/Remain was not really about understanding something, something measurable and with a scientific basis like your example. It was much more to do with gut feeling. How people felt they are being treated, how they feel they want to be governed. There are no right or wrong answers.

"At its heart, Leave was fuelled by a festering sense of betrayal among legions of working class voters in places that have long felt overlooked by what they perceive as a political and media elite in cosmopolitan London." 

 http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/liveblogs/2016-06-24/#5848624949da48ad06f93fcf903d4c77

Nothing to do with plonkers being unable to understand things like what you can.

 

[Guest av1]

Just on immigration. It is possible to be concerned about free passage of people without being xenophobic. Why don't America, Australia, or any other non EU country open their doors to anyone and everyone? Are they xenophobic as well? 

Its about numbers not colour. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by av1

[krisagg75]

1 minute ago, BigJim said:

But Leave/Remain was not really about understanding something, something measurable and with a scientific basis like your example. It was much more to do with gut feeling. How people felt they are being treated, how they feel they want to be governed. There are no right or wrong answers.

"At its heart, Leave was fuelled by a festering sense of betrayal among legions of working class voters in places that have long felt overlooked by what they perceive as a political and media elite in cosmopolitan London." 

 http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/liveblogs/2016-06-24/#5848624949da48ad06f93fcf903d4c77

Nothing to do with plonkers being unable to understand things like what you can.

 

trouble is the people in charge of leaving hate the working class as much as they hate foreigners.

[CastleBromVilla]

1 minute ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

That isn't an answer. That doesn't tell us at all what they plan to do about immigration. If we want to trade with the EU, we'll have to accept free movement, so what are Leaves actual plans to deal with immigration?

It will give us far greater control and allows us to decide who enters the country. We'll be able ensure those we do allow to come here, add value and will stop those that won't be able to support themselves and are just using the EU as a passage way into the country.

[brommy]

Has the EU ever explained exactly why the free movement of labour is so essential to membership of their club?

[CastleBromVilla]

2 minutes ago, av1 said:

Just on immigration. It is possible to be concerned about free passage of people without being xenophobic. Why don't America, Australia, or any other non EU country open their doors to anyone and everyone? Are they xenophobic as well? 

Its about numbers not colour. 

Yeah, course! Aslong as you're not English.

[sharkyvilla]

1 minute ago, av1 said:

Just on immigration. It is possible to be concerned about free passage of people without being xenophobic. Why don't America, Australia, or any other non EU country open there doors to anyone and everyone? Are they xenophobic as well? 

Its about numbers not colour. 

I think so, that is the view I have held until very recently, it's just I couldn't vote for leaving when there is no concrete plan in place as to what we would do.  Cameron got stick for only coming back with a couple of concessions on people needing to come over and get a job within 6 months and work for four years before they can fully access the benefit system but they seemed fair to me.  The EU needs to address the free movement of people in some fashion or face crumbling and I still have a small hope that they realise this, reform it and perhaps during the negotiations to leave we can perhaps get a new deal that we could have a second referendum on.

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, BigJim said:

But Leave/Remain was not really about understanding something, something measurable and with a scientific basis like your example. It was much more to do with gut feeling. How people felt they are being treated, how they feel they want to be governed. There are no right or wrong answers.

"At its heart, Leave was fuelled by a festering sense of betrayal among legions of working class voters in places that have long felt overlooked by what they perceive as a political and media elite in cosmopolitan London." 

 http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/liveblogs/2016-06-24/#5848624949da48ad06f93fcf903d4c77

Nothing to do with plonkers being unable to understand things like what you can.

 

My example was a bad one. Ignore it. The fundamental question is 'you don't understand something, should you vote on it?'. Gut feel isn't a viable position to run a country, you have to have insight and understanding. If this was about gut feeling why where there campaigns running around 'explaining' (stretching the term to near breaking point) positions?

The referendum was obscenely stupid and lo and behold, ignorance was 'wot won it'.

It isn't a surprise the most vocal leavers are not the most articulate or nuanced of people.

[BigJim]

2 minutes ago, brommy said:

Has the EU ever explained exactly why the free movement of labour is so essential to membership of their club?

It is essential to big business. German industries built their power on hiring cheap immigrant labour and laying them off again when it suited them.

[mjmooney]

24 minutes ago, CastleBromVilla said:

You can put at that project fear crap to one side now, it's all finished. That isn't really going to happen, is it? There might me a bit of a bump, but its certainly not going to destroy our economy. It's people like you, flapping and blowing things out of proportion that makes things worse.

Of course, that bit of a bump will be happening to somebody else, won't it? And if by some fluke you should lose your job, you won't mind, it's worth it to Get Our Country Back, eh? 

[villakram]

2 minutes ago, brommy said:

Has the EU ever explained exactly why the free movement of labour is so essential to membership of their club?

If EU bears the costs of hosting these consumers (social/financial etc), then it only makes sense that if you wish to access their market then you will have to pay. This payment can be via a direct capital transfer or some portion of it can be via an in kind contribution, e.g., free movement of people. 

Are the leavers willing to pay the taxes required to fund keeping these willing workers out, while getting access to the EU market?

[CastleBromVilla]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

Of course, that bit of a bump will be happening to somebody else, won't it? And if by some fluke you should lose your job, you won't mind, it's worth it to Get Our Country Back, eh? 

Yes, it is. It makes me sad that so many in this country would gladly sell us up the river to Europe.

No more though Mr Mooney!

[jon_c]

6 minutes ago, brommy said:

Has the EU ever explained exactly why the free movement of labour is so essential to membership of their club?

From the first thing that came up on google: 

"The precursor to the EU was formed as European leaders came together in the wake of the Second World War, wanting to prevent another catastrophic war. The idea was that allowing people to move across the continent - from countries where there were no jobs to countries where there were labour shortages - would not only boost European growth, but would help prevent war by getting people to mix more across borders."