The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[StefanAVFC]

11 minutes ago, BigJim said:

It's just that I find it very distasteful that so many posters have been questioning the intelligence of Leave voters. 

To be fair

 

[colhint]

7 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Congrats, now some unelected toff will not just have a say but will dictate things that directly affect you and everyone else without any EU protection to stop them going too far.

are you talking about Junker, who today said we want you out soon, or Tusk who said out is out forever.

Just when did they put it to the other states to vote on this, because the commission doesn't meet to discuss it until next week.

Do you  think he will then put it to the elected MEP's  who will vote on it, and if 1 member state says no I want more time to discuss it, they will be overridden, he will just say no bugger off they are out. 

Isn't that what the EU is against for our protection

[Ingram85]

Just now, colhint said:

are you talking about Junker, who today said we want you out soon, or Tusk who said out is out forever.

Just when did they put it to the other states to vote on this, because the commission doesn't meet to discuss it until next week.

Do you  think he will then put it to the elected MEP's  who will vote on it, and if 1 member state says no I want more time to discuss it, they will be overridden, he will just say no bugger off they are out. 

Isn't that what the EU is against for our protection

You are confusing one person with many. 

[krisagg75]

2 hours ago, Gary Thomas said:

This ain't going to be a bump - there's going to be a lot of pain - the economy, jobs and investment will suffer because of this decision and the cost of navigating our way through the mess will be astronomical. That's not project fear, it is the reality we have to face for a few years.  I hope all the pain is worth it in the long run but at the moment I can only see a weaker, more fragmented and isolated UK that could eventually become a weaker, more fragmented and isolated England and Wales.  I pray I am wrong and the gamble pays off.

no more likes but agree 100%

Edited June 25, 2016 by krisagg75

[BigJim]

21 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Again, you don't understand. I'm getting exceptionally tired of this.

My apologies to any readers that have seen this before.

The EU is made up of thousands of voices. Whole sections of it are made of people that hate it. Significant elements of its organisation are nominated by national governments. And so and so forth. Some of those people undoubtedly want a USE. Some of those people want to burn Brussels to the ground. Some of those people want to develop the EU towards closer but not complete union. Some of those people would rather a return overtly and solely economic union. They all can't agree. Even if the entire commission decides on an EU state (which, as said above, won't happen), the Parliament reviews it and won't agree, because lots of the Parliament is there to be opposed to the organisation. They have the power to remove the Commission also.

That's before you get to the sovereignty nitty gritty. Which wouldn't be broken.

It's a red herring. And always has been.

But you'd know all that, because you're not ignorant, wouldn't you?

I'm also tired of arguing the point, but just to set the record straight, I spoke of federalist aims and tendencies, which are quite undeniable (by anyone except possibly posters on this forum).  

I suggest you reread the history of the European project since its foundation. 

Good night.

 

[krisagg75]

1 hour ago, jon_c said:

The only representation of vote leavers that I have are those posting on social media, those shown in reports on the broadcast media, and those I have spoken to face to face. 

I won't pre-judge a group of people in their entirety. 

However the majority of those leavers I have experienced have said something to me that was either ignorant, xenophobic or outright racist. Be it complete ignorance of what the EU is or does, to telling me they don't want the German's telling them what to do 'cause they killed my granddad' (and that is a direct quote)

So I understand when there is a tendency by some (be it wrongly) to group you with the people with whom you have allied your vote.

After all I share no political ideals personally with David Cameron bar that we were both for Remain.

i've no more likes but this is spot on(not regarding cameron though,)

[villa4europe]

23 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Congrats, now some unelected toff will not just have a say but will dictate things that directly affect you and everyone else without any EU protection to stop them going too far.

this whole "unelected" thing stinks of shit...the same shit that we saw 10 years ago by labour

i get that during the election there isnt a "david cameron" box but as someone who voted tory at the last election im disappointed that by the end of the year we'll have boris as PM, that certainly would have swayed me away from the tories 2 years a go

[Chindie]

Just now, BigJim said:

I'm also tired of arguing the point, but just to set the record straight, I spoke of federalist aims and tendencies, which are quite undeniable (by anyone except possibly posters on this forum).  

I suggest you reread the history of the European project since its foundation. 

Good night.

 

They're eminently deniable. The entire project is founded on using business to secure a peaceful Europe. Business isn't federalist. Everything it does aims to make trade easier. It's never particularly approached it from a federalist standpoint.

And as said, even if it wanted to, it'd run into a car crash of national sovereignty debacles it couldn't overcome. So it hasn't even attempted it.

I don't need to reread the history of the European Union. I've a well thumbed selection of books on my shelf that are testament to that. Would you like to borrow them? You might need them more than me.

[tom_avfc]

12 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Just goes to show that kids today know **** all 

 

 

 

yeah because flippant comments help the thousands who are now disillusioned! I hope the younger vote remain staunch in what they believe! 

[colhint]

7 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

You are confusing one person with many. 

Am I? the president of the council and the president of the commission, neither of whom are elected, are telling us of the terms of the split, without consulting the elected members. 

could they raise interest rates without consulting them, could they bomb russia if they thought it was best for the EU?

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, colhint said:

Am I? the president of the council and the president of the commission, neither of whom are elected, are telling us of the terms of the split, without consulting the elected members. 

could they raise interest rates without consulting them, could they bomb russia if they thought it was best for the EU?

If they've made the decision, why are they meeting the remaining leaders next week to decide what to do? The comments by the presidents are just reactions. They obviously have a position. But the leaders so as well.

[krisagg75]

1 hour ago, BigJim said:

Here we go again: The Leave vote was mainly xenophobic thickos who don't understand the bigger picture. The Remainers clearly thought the issue through like the thoroughly decent, intelligent, cosmopolitan chaps they are.

Apologies cyrusr, it's not just you. But I think you can all do a bit better than that.

it's true though.my brother and his wife have voted leave and their jobs are directly afffected,.all they said to me throughout this campaign was,immigrants et al.

[One For The Road]

Just now, krisagg75 said:

it's true though.my brother and his wife have voted leave and their jobs are directly afffected,.all they said to me throughout this campaign was,immigrants et al.

That's all I have heard from the leave voters. Immigration. It's the only thing they are interested in and they don't even understand how it works. Granted there are some who have voted for other reasons but I'm talking about what I have heard directly. None of them have had anything else to say.

[krisagg75]

1 hour ago, jon_c said:

The only representation of vote leavers that I have are those posting on social media, those shown in reports on the broadcast media, and those I have spoken to face to face. 

I won't pre-judge a group of people in their entirety. 

However the majority of those leavers I have experienced have said something to me that was either ignorant, xenophobic or outright racist. Be it complete ignorance of what the EU is or does, to telling me they don't want the German's telling them what to do 'cause they killed my granddad' (and that is a direct quote)

So I understand when there is a tendency by some (be it wrongly) to group you with the people with whom you have allied your vote.

After all I share no political ideals personally with David Cameron bar that we were both for Remain.

no more likes but this is my experience today,including my brother unfortunately.

Edited June 24, 2016 by krisagg75

[krisagg75]

1 hour ago, tinker said:

 Randy Lerner was spotted leaving number 10 shortly before the results were announced.......

On a serious note, overnight how divided have we become? Even on here the divisions are clear. The very things we all wanted , leave or  stay, now seems further away than ever , its a sad day for us all no matter which way we voted .

 

were f ed

[MikeMcKenna]

I firmly believe that millions of those who voted Leave will come to regret it when they realize that the leaders of Leave are lying scumbags.

Politicians such as Johnson, Gove, IDS, Farage, Raab, Haanan etc will gradually show their true colours. They are very right wing and contrary to their claims during the campaigns they support TTIP, are against the NHS and not interested in the working classes.

Take Dominic Raab for example who co-wrote a book which featured the line: "Once they enter the workplace, the British are among the worst idlers in the world," 

or how about Michael Gove who co-wrote "An Agenda for A New Model Party" which stated:  “Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain.”

As we have already heard from Farage the promise of massive funding for the NHS was a 'mistake' - I would call it a lie. He has publicly stated on more that one occasion that he wishes it to be privately funded. 

Basically most of the leading lights in the Leave campaign would like to scale back the NHS and many of them have extreme views on genetics, gay people and race: 

 

Matthew Elliott (chief executive Vote Leave) – is the founder of the Taxpayers Alliance – which has long argued for the break-up of the NHS and private competition in healthcare. The TPA is funded by wealthy individuals such as Bamford of JCB and wants public spending to be slashed even more massively.

Dominic Cummings (campaign director Vote Leave) – once said less privileged children do worse at school due to what he called their “inferior genes”. When asked in an interview for his campaigning inspiration he said "Communist Party Propaganda"

Dominic Raab (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – advocated privatising the NHS. 

Peter Bone (campaign committee member Grassroots Out) – thinks the NHS should be forced to open up to US companies via TTIP and opposed the minimum wage. 

Nigel Dodds (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – once campaigned for services to be legally withheld from people for being gay. 

Steve Baker (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – praised healthcare provision for the working classes in Britain before the NHS. 

Douglas Carswell (campaign committee member Vote Leave) –  called for the “denationalising” and privatisation of healthcare provision in Britain. 

Boris Johnson (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – once had to apologise for an article in a magazine he edited which claimed “blacks have lower IQs”.

Liam Fox (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – has called for “huge restrictions” on abortion, voted against same-sex marriage, and called for cuts to what he called the “wasteful” NHS. He has close links with American private healthcare companies.

Chris Grayling (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – in 2010 he said hotel owners should be able to bar gay people. 

Dan Hannan (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – in 2009 called for the dismantling of the NHS, calling it a “relic”. 

Lord Lawson (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – has argued pollution and global warming are good for the environment and cyclists are damaging London! 

Andrea Leadsom (campaign committee member Vote Leave) – thinks the NHS should be forced to open up to US companies via TTIP

Philip Hollobone (campaign committee member Grassroots Out) – also once blocked plans to reverse private sector involvement in the NHS by talking out (or filibustering) a private member’s bill. Also thinks the NHS should be forced to open up to US companies in via TTIP

They have managed to pull off a right wing coup and once they have gained power they will totally **** the people. Ironically within the next five years they will also roll back their opposition to mass immigration. As for their 'anti-establishment' claims, within a year Farage will get a seat in the House of Lords, rejoin the Conservative party and become a member of the cabinet.

Many people who believed them will be in up in arms within 2-3 years.

 

 

 

[krisagg75]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I voted leave, purely for democratic reasons, I'm not comfortable with unelected democratically unaccountable Eurocrats having a say in things that directly effect me. All other points and arguments from both sides were just noise as far as I was concerned.

the thing is unlike in the uk(house of lords) they are not unelected.

[BigJim]

10 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

See House of Lords. See the cabinet with Boris Johnson there "just cos" and other useless members.  See FIFA. See the olympics. See the democratic and republican parties nomination process (now that is just a farce). See the local councils. These are all other examples on nonsense monsters that have power to make binding decisions over us or their country/sport and eat up a huge amount of money for no benefit to the country/people/sport.

As has said before by others, at least I have voted for someone to sit in the EU parliament, I haven't for the House of Lords. Whilst the Commons can veto, it takes a lot of effort and negotiations to get through the Lords who are appointed when the sitting government need to shore up their numbers. If we want to sort out bureaucratic monsters maybe look closer to home as well?

No worries. I get why you would get irate at that, like when people say that remain voters are bitter and arrogant intellectuals who think they know best   (Not saying you have said that, but people have been certainly saying it all day and it does gripe me as well!)

Hey, I'm with you about monsters everywhere. House of Lords - yes, but at least it is a venerable institution which does its job as second chamber. Would you rather have a US style elected senate? I don't see many more signs of real democracy at work in their system. FIFA, there's one to make the blood boil in all our veins. I used to get far more worked up about them than any political body. 

I just think the Euro bureaucracy is absurdly top heavy and will just keep growing (well, maybe not now). They churn out mountains of regulations and have to keep doing so to justify their existence. Everything you see around you is probably regulated in some way. And don't ever research the bureaucrats' compensation packages if you want to sleep at night, they are obscene.

 

[Chindie]

The UK is one of the least regulated nations on the planet.

Also, if you actually read some of the regulations and legislations the EU produces, you'll quickly see that most of them don't affect much of anything at all. Vast amounts relate to fisheries across the various regions. Lots are minor revisions to older regulations. Some refer to incredibly specific matters which won't affect 99.9% of anything - they have regulations concerning the mergers of specific businesses on the impact of that on certain products (as John Oliver noted this week). Hence why the figures trotted out by Leavers on numbers of legislations and regulations from Brussels are nonsense. Without the context the numbers are meaningless.

And regulation isn't a bad thing. At all.

[tonyh29]

36 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

yeah because flippant comments help the thousands who are now disillusioned! I hope the younger vote remain staunch in what they believe! 

I can't find anything to back the claim but I've read in a few places that turnout for 18-24 year olds was 25 %

if true then they don't appear to have been staunch at all .... I'm still searching to try and substantiate that figure though 

Edited June 24, 2016 by tonyh29