The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Remember thinking Theresa May was the worst PM we’ve ever had?

Nope.

But I get the point if you’re under 45.

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I'm sure you're right, but it's not going to happen, and if it did, it would be back in court before the end of the week.

Well, I'm not 100% sure in myself but thanks.

I'm also not sure that it''s not going to happen (I'd have thought it was almost certain before a Queen's Speech, assuming that they're still intending to go down that route).

The last bit, I definitely agree with : back in court before the end of the week.

[a m ole]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Nope.

But I get the point if you’re under 45.

Ha, good point. I have served under Thatcher but wasn’t old enough to know she was trying to steal my milk.

[tonyh29]

2 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Ha, good point. I have served under Thatcher but wasn’t old enough to know she was trying to steal my milk.

Or wise enough to know even now that she didn’t

 

[LondonLax]

19 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I'm sure you're right, but it's not going to happen, and if it did, it would be back in court before the end of the week.

If the government prorogued parliament for 4-5 days (rather than 5 weeks) I would suspect they would likely win a court challenge. The question would become more difficult if it were for a period in between of say 2-4 weeks. 

[a m ole]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Or wise enough to know even now that she didn’t

 

should I have added an emoji? 

[HanoiVillan]

11 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

If the government prorogued parliament for 4-5 days (rather than 5 weeks) I would suspect they would likely win a court challenge. The question would become more difficult if it were for a period in between of say 2-4 weeks. 

That seems right, but then surely it wouldn't be serving the purpose the 'Number 10 source' has suggested for it.

[ml1dch]

18 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

If the government prorogued parliament for 4-5 days (rather than 5 weeks) I would suspect they would likely win a court challenge. The question would become more difficult if it were for a period in between of say 2-4 weeks. 

Probably, but even then it would be an obvious lie.

If the purpose is "to pass a Queen's speech", right now they couldn't pass wind without losing a vote on it.

But no, there probably wouldn't be a court challenge on it. At least it would give him a few more days to be humiliated in public rather than in Westminster.

[ml1dch]

Obviously it's far from the most important thing, but if Johnson's plan had been to bring a deal back and hope enough Labour MPs would support it - I think after tonight that plan has been well and truly torched.

All that factional stuff from the weekend can basically be forgotten and everyone can remember where the horrible smell is really coming from.

[Chindie]

A large part of me suspects he doesn't give a ****. He doesn't care what happens with Brexit. He just wants an election. If he can't get a deal passed, it just gets spun as out of touch elite Remoaner parliamentarians defying the people when all poor old Eton and Oxford educated related to various royal families Prime Minister Johnson wants to do is fulfill the democratic will of the people.

It's so transparent it's nearly funny.

[Wainy316]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Nope.

But I get the point if you’re under 45.

Thatcher wasn’t incompetent though, she was just evil.

[jackbauer24]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

A large part of me suspects he doesn't give a ****. He doesn't care what happens with Brexit. He just wants an election. If he can't get a deal passed, it just gets spun as out of touch elite Remoaner parliamentarians defying the people when all poor old Eton and Oxford educated related to various royal families Prime Minister Johnson wants to do is fulfill the democratic will of the people.

It's so transparent it's nearly funny.

But it also works on so many people it's scary. Terrifying. 

I hear educated people saying 'let's just get it done, I'm bored of it now' even if they were remainers. How can society have such a short attention span that they can't even be bothered to continually invest in such an important decision just because it's more complicated than anyone believed. How can people be so stupid to believe that a No-Deal Brexit means it's all over immediately? People listen only to soundbites and hashtags and catchy phrases without having the intelligence to question clear contradictions, to hold liars to account or to look at documented evidence/ reports/industry.

No, we have politicians applauding lawbreakers as if it was some clever Eton tomfoolery worth a bit of a giggle... We have politicians copying the Trump guide to politics; admit nothing, question anyone more qualified than yourself, ignore laws, claim fake news/ conspiracy at every difficult revelation. And it works. It keeps working. This country largely deserves what's coming to it.

I'll fight to remain however long it takes but strongly suspect I'll lose. But I won't give up because it's boring. It is boring to be still going on but that's because the simplest questions won't be answered;

1. Did all people leaving want EXACTLY the same thing? (no deal, trade, Norway etc etc) if not how do you know they are majority?

2. What gets better when we leave?

3. Why is voting again, with in fact more time than between last two GEs now, undemocratic?

These aren't remain questions. If you voted Leave, answer them. Brexiteers (including Johnson) stopped Leave with May Deal as it wasn't 'their' leave - automatically proves there are at least two versions of leave which means, mathematically, Remain had biggest share unless someone can prove approximately 96% of Leavers wanted to leave at all cost even if they couldn't get their version. No one has said what gets better, just what might stay the same if we're lucky. And finally, that we can't have another vote in case Remain wins - openly ignoring any potential will of the people.

Where is the 'threat' from a second referendum? If you're so sure No-Deal is what the people want you should happily put it to the people so you can show you understand the public. A Brexiteer should want this. Your deal is great? Put it to public. Boris could do that tomorrow and this would have the whole house in agreement and we'd know what's what the day after the referendum, one way or the other.

I think Leave would still win. In my opinion because populism/sound bites/racism/xenophobia/laziness are some of the most common British traits. I find it thoroughly depressing.

Leaver voters will not engage in questioning. I've tried. Calm conversation. The answer is a 'we won get over it' or 'leave means leave'. The ability to dig just a little bit deeper escapes them through 'boredom'.

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Or wise enough to know even now that she didn’t

 

Not on VT mate, not on VT

[chrisp65]

4 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Not on VT mate, not on VT

Get a couple of years under your belt and join in the VT rituals.

[blandy]

7 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Obviously it's far from the most important thing, but if Johnson's plan had been to bring a deal back and hope enough Labour MPs would support it - I think after tonight that plan has been well and truly torched.

All that factional stuff from the weekend can basically be forgotten and everyone can remember where the horrible smell is really coming from.

I think that was his plan. It’s still his best way out, but like everything else he puts his hand to, he’s probably messed that up,  but give it a week and things may change again.

[desensitized43]

6 hours ago, jackbauer24 said:

But it also works on so many people it's scary. Terrifying. 

I hear educated people saying 'let's just get it done, I'm bored of it now' even if they were remainers. How can society have such a short attention span that they can't even be bothered to continually invest in such an important decision just because it's more complicated than anyone believed. How can people be so stupid to believe that a No-Deal Brexit means it's all over immediately? People listen only to soundbites and hashtags and catchy phrases without having the intelligence to question clear contradictions, to hold liars to account or to look at documented evidence/ reports/industry.

No, we have politicians applauding lawbreakers as if it was some clever Eton tomfoolery worth a bit of a giggle... We have politicians copying the Trump guide to politics; admit nothing, question anyone more qualified than yourself, ignore laws, claim fake news/ conspiracy at every difficult revelation. And it works. It keeps working. This country largely deserves what's coming to it.

I'll fight to remain however long it takes but strongly suspect I'll lose. But I won't give up because it's boring. It is boring to be still going on but that's because the simplest questions won't be answered;

1. Did all people leaving want EXACTLY the same thing? (no deal, trade, Norway etc etc) if not how do you know they are majority?

2. What gets better when we leave?

3. Why is voting again, with in fact more time than between last two GEs now, undemocratic?

These aren't remain questions. If you voted Leave, answer them. Brexiteers (including Johnson) stopped Leave with May Deal as it wasn't 'their' leave - automatically proves there are at least two versions of leave which means, mathematically, Remain had biggest share unless someone can prove approximately 96% of Leavers wanted to leave at all cost even if they couldn't get their version. No one has said what gets better, just what might stay the same if we're lucky. And finally, that we can't have another vote in case Remain wins - openly ignoring any potential will of the people.

Where is the 'threat' from a second referendum? If you're so sure No-Deal is what the people want you should happily put it to the people so you can show you understand the public. A Brexiteer should want this. Your deal is great? Put it to public. Boris could do that tomorrow and this would have the whole house in agreement and we'd know what's what the day after the referendum, one way or the other.

I think Leave would still win. In my opinion because populism/sound bites/racism/xenophobia/laziness are some of the most common British traits. I find it thoroughly depressing.

Leaver voters will not engage in questioning. I've tried. Calm conversation. The answer is a 'we won get over it' or 'leave means leave'. The ability to dig just a little bit deeper escapes them through 'boredom'.

The tories, in particular the ERG end won't put it to a second vote.

They know that they can't keep remain off the ballot. If you subscribe to the point of view that it needs to be a binary question then it's either "no deal vs remain" in which case they'll lose because the majority won't tolerate no deal, all the polling bares that out. Or it's "May's deal (of some description) vs remain" which they won't tolerate because they've never wanted a deal, especially not that one, and they've not come this far to compromise.

They've got nothing to gain from a second vote, and everything to lose. Until that changes their position won't either

A situation where the house has moved decisively toward a revoke position that'll never happen under this parliament.

I can envisage a situation where we see the tories as the largest party but a Labour government in coalition with SNP and Libs where the price of that would be revoke. At which point they'll jump up and down about democracy and start demanding another vote. 

[tonyh29]

6 hours ago, jackbauer24 said:

eaver voters will not engage in questioning. I've tried. Calm conversation. The answer is a 'we won get over it' or 'leave means leave'. The ability to dig just a little bit deeper escapes them through 'boredom'.

I accept you are probably talking real world here but I’ve spent 3 years trying to engage ,  .. mainly to be met with “ yeh but diesel “  and  told that I’m incapable of having an opinion and just believing what the media tell me or some other  insult that person just read on Twitter ...

Any “valid “ points are usually ignored or someone finds a grammatical error and focuses on that , I get that’s part and parcel of a forum and mea culpa to save someone the trouble 

you want something good , i think respectfully you aren’t looking hard enough but I throw out an easy one for you ... common agricultural policy , leave the EU and this ends ... ordinarily the idea that rich landowners are paid based on the amount of land they own not to produce anything would have the VT left up in arms , but I don’t recall anyone on here from the remain side objectively discussing it ...The plan is to replace CAP with public money for public goods ( how many times have you heard anyone mention that ? ) ... on paper it sounds  promising but regardless it has to be better than CAP doesn’t it ? 

 Tbf some posters have in moments of weakness said there are things they dislike about the EU and in other circumstances they could perhaps have been persuaded by a leave argument but then  say on reflection they conclude we are better off in , leavers don’t appear to be allowed the same courtesy of reflection 

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

On 24/09/2019 at 17:37, blandy said:

LDs: Right now, as an oppo party - support ref, campaign to remain. LDs if Gov't: Revoke.

Lab: Right now, as an oppo party, support a Labour Brexit or a Referendum,

These 2 would flip faster than a dying fish if it meant getting a look at a majority in the commons IMO (This is the game Corbyn is playing for sure).  Hard brexit or killing cats, no matter,  they would campaign for anything to get power. All MP's are damaged goods now and garner little respect now even by their own supporters.   

They have all played their part in what is a shambles and now people will get hurt and the threats will increase,  they are winding the whole country up at the moment.  All logic is gone in the Brexit argument now I feel.  All the parties should be ashamed IMO,  none of them can be the adult and compromise,  it only takes a few now either way.

I was also thinking of something,  WTF would have been on the news/tv for the last 3 years without this,  clown and blackboard?

[lp_villa830]

9 hours ago, Chindie said:

A large part of me suspects he doesn't give a ****. He doesn't care what happens with Brexit. He just wants an election. If he can't get a deal passed, it just gets spun as out of touch elite Remoaner parliamentarians defying the people when all poor old Eton and Oxford educated related to various royal families Prime Minister Johnson wants to do is fulfill the democratic will of the people.

It's so transparent it's nearly funny.

At my place of work(a small manufacturing firm of about 40 people in the middle of Brum) I'd say the vast majority of people voted out, unfortunately despite the tactics being so transparent most are falling for it. 

Even when the odd person disagrees with one of Boris' tactics the usual caveat to it is that the Remainers/EU are forcing him to do it. 

Every time Brexit gets bought up or discussed the usual bluster comes out and theirs no changing minds or opinions. I've heard it all, including people saying their will be civil war if Brexit doesn't happen. 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

2 minutes ago, lp_villa830 said:

I've heard it all, including people saying their will be civil war if Brexit doesn't happen.

This is sort of worrying when there are large groups saying it,  1 bloke in a pub,  fair enough but how many of these groups are there ? 

Do they know what a civil war is actually ?