The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[ml1dch]

13 minutes ago, colhint said:

Don't think that's quite right Tony. See my earlier post regarding paragraph 4, we don't get to vote on the decisions of the council under article 50.

You're confusing two different bodies deciding things. The Prime Minister (apparently) requests an extension, with a gun to his head until the end of January 2020. 

If they say yes, then it's done.

If they say no, then it's done.

If they say "no, but how about this date instead..." (see below)

Those three options have no UK input at all. It's the other leaders deciding for us, based on what suits them best. As you rightly say.

The only one where there is a decision for the UK is the third permutation. The Prime Minister can accept It, or if he doesn't then Parliament has the option of accepting it.

Which unless it's measured in days or years, they obviously will.

(incidentally, I think Tony is right. Parliament only gets a say if the PM refuses the offer. Presumably they didn't think that him accepting was something they needed to plan for)

Edited September 26, 2019 by ml1dch

[tonyh29]

EU source saying any new discussions before the Oct gathering pretty much pointless  as they don’t think  that the angry, divided House of Commons will approve a Johnson-brokered Brexit deal ...suggests they would agree to a new extension , which puts it back on the person who says he won’t ask for it in any circumstances 

[LondonLax]

If Johnson continues his bluster I think it will focus enough minds to form a temp national unity gov and take the decisions out of his hands. 

It won’t be a current party leader that everyone could agree to support as temp PM but non threatening older member of the house might get the nod. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by LondonLax

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

If Johnson continues his bluster I think it will focus enough minds to form a temp national unity gov and take the decisions out of his hands. 

It won’t be a current party leader that everyone could agree to support as temp PM but non threatening older member of the house might get the nod. 

Forget the subject (Brexit),  can the PM be removed for this ? If compared to Blair for example who actually got 1000's of people killed for no reason it seems strange that Blair was not even put in jail but the current PM can possibly be removed for winding things up.  

 

[Xann]

9 hours ago, colhint said:

The MEP makes no difference. 

Well, no obviously. You'd need a time machine. Those statutes were set years ago.

It's the same for Germany, France and everyone else.

We're not the rulers of Europe.

To leave hands power to big money, that give even less of a shit about you than the EU and won't give you a veto.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

11 minutes ago, Xann said:

Well, no obviously. You'd need a time machine. Those statutes were set years ago.

It's the same for Germany, France and everyone else.

We're not the rulers of Europe.

To leave hands power to big money, that give even less of a shit about you than the EU and won't give you a veto.

So we're not the rulers of Europe. Germany, France, everyone else and big money aren't ruling Europe.

So just WHO is setting the agenda of the EU right now?

[bickster]

1 hour ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Forget the subject (Brexit),  can the PM be removed for this ? If compared to Blair for example who actually got 1000's of people killed for no reason it seems strange that Blair was not even put in jail but the current PM can possibly be removed for winding things up.  

 

He can be replaced as PM by means of a VONC and another person being invited by the queen to form a government, that person obviously must have the confidence of the house. The actions of the PM is irrelevant, this is just the democratic process as laid out in the FTPA

[bickster]

33 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

So we're not the rulers of Europe. Germany, France, everyone else and big money aren't ruling Europe.

So just WHO is setting the agenda of the EU right now?

Europeans?

[chrisp65]

33 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

So we're not the rulers of Europe. Germany, France, everyone else and big money aren't ruling Europe.

So just WHO is setting the agenda of the EU right now?

All of the above are setting the agenda, collectively.

Once we’re out, it’ll simply be the highest bidder.

 

That’s a very very reduced down version, but that’s basically it.

[snowychap]

 

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

7 minutes ago, snowychap said:

 

Isn't he conflating a political outlook (patriotism) with an economic one (globalism)? How many of the people on recent anti-globalist marches would identify as patriots?

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Isn't he conflating a political outlook (patriotism) with an economic one (globalism)? How many of the people on recent anti-globalist marches would identify as patriots?

I could be way off here, and I’m about to do a few hours work so I wont be able to back this up for a while.....

Do some cultures treat the two things differently? I think maybe Brexit has shown an english persuasion that we have to be patriots which means not being part of the EU. Whereas maybe Scottish patriotism is tending towards loving Scotland, on as many international platforms including the EU, as possible.

Also, I think some places find it easy to be patriotic and like other places, whereas as some countries, sometimes, can’t quite get that.

If you know what I mean?

As in, I think it’s perfectly possible to be a Welsh nationalist, that’s an internationalist, that likes the english, but wants Westminster and hundreds of english MP’s out of my life.

Anyway, I’m off...

[snowychap]

27 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Isn't he conflating a political outlook (patriotism) with an economic one (globalism)? How many of the people on recent anti-globalist marches would identify as patriots?

I don't think he's conflating anything.

I don't think 'globalism' is solely economic.

I think one can be a globalist (i.e.. being of the opinion that you're a citizen of the world and having regard and hope for international organisations and the collective efforts of nations, regions and groupings coming together across the globe to address problems that are obviously not parochial ones and for which global solutions are needed) and be worried about economic globalism (i.e. the freedom with which capital and multinational business can move around and exploit people in particular areas of the globe - for which, perhaps, some sort of global rather than parochial national response might be best) and the effects it may have in various areas.

I don't really care too much about how or whether people self-declare as 'patriots'.

Edited September 27, 2019 by snowychap

[tonyh29]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Whereas maybe Scottish patriotism is tending towards loving Scotland, on as many international platforms including the EU, as possible whilst hating the English

Fixed that for you

 

To a degree , this just seems to be another aren’t the English pathetic post though , it’s like Scotland Good , Wales good , everyone loves those cheeky Irish  ... English , bunch of thick gammon rocket polishers 

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

20 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I don't think he's conflating anything.

I don't think 'globalism' is solely economic.

I think one can be a globalist (i.e.. being of the opinion that you're a citizen of the world and having regard and hope for international organisations and the collective efforts of nations, regions and groupings coming together across the globe to address problems that are obviously not parochial ones and for which global solutions are needed) and be worried about economic globalism (i.e. the freedom with which capital and multinational business can move around and exploit people in particular areas of the globe - for which, perhaps, some sort of global rather than parochial national response might be best) and the effects it may have in various areas.

I don't really care too much about how or whether people self-declare as 'patriots'.

So we require some sort of New World Order, if you will? You are Henry Kissinger and I claim my £5! 

[chrisp65]

37 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Fixed that for you

 

To a degree , this just seems to be another aren’t the English pathetic post though , it’s like Scotland Good , Wales good , everyone loves those cheeky Irish  ... English , bunch of thick gammon rocket polishers 

No.

That's absolutely 100% not what I was trying to put across. If I wanted to say the english are pathetic I'd say it. I said I like them, as a general sweeping friendly statement.

Really didn't want that, so I'll absolutely drop out of discussing this any further.

Forget I tried discussing it. It's something I usually try and avoid because so often this is exactly where it goes.

[lapal_fan]

51 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Fixed that for you

 

To a degree , this just seems to be another aren’t the English pathetic post though , it’s like Scotland Good , Wales good , everyone loves those cheeky Irish  ... English , bunch of thick gammon rocket polishers 

Pretty weak, dude. 

12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

No.

That's absolutely 100% not what I was trying to put across. If I wanted to say the english are pathetic I'd say it. I said I like them, as a general sweeping friendly statement.

Really didn't want that, so I'll absolutely drop out of discussing this any further.

Forget I tried discussing it. It's something I usually try and avoid because so often this is exactly where it goes.

I understand what you're saying.  We all like our national teams to do well and people do tend to bunch a little tighter when there is a difference in time or space, no matter how large or small.  Wasn't there a comedian who said if we saw aliens coming to kill us, humanity would - as one - back each other.  If 1 continent tried to kill another, the defenders would group up, if 1 country went against another... all the way down to neighbor level.  

I think people loosely want to be grouped up and do as well as the next guy, but there's also that human level competition where we'd all like to be slightly better off than him as well! 

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

Fixed that for you

 

To a degree , this just seems to be another aren’t the English pathetic post though , it’s like Scotland Good , Wales good , everyone loves those cheeky Irish  ... English , bunch of thick gammon rocket polishers 

Well I'm English, and I think there's some justification for that viewpoint. 

[tonyh29]

7 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Pretty weak, dude. 

 

it really wasn't , this thread / forum is just full of humbug like that  ...fairly sure there are posts in here along the lines of I'm ashamed to be English   .. i get it's hyperbole and PFE but its boring

I accept @chrisp65 has since elaborated and said specifically that wasn't  his attention so my apologies there for misinterpreting him , that wasn't my intention 

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, tonyh29 said:

it really wasn't , this thread / forum is just full of humbug like that  ...fairly sure there are posts in here along the lines of I'm ashamed to be English   .. i get it's hyperbole and PFE but its boring

I accept @chrisp65 has since elaborated and said specifically that wasn't  his attention so my apologies there for misinterpreting him , that wasn't my intention 

The whole board is full of pedantic, Autistic spectrum, angry bods. It's a forum, only huge geeks use forums

You gotta expect it, if you give it.

You got it right with hyperbole, don't fan the flames when there aren't any to waft at, I thought Crispy Kreme made a decent point that wasn't pfe at all.