hippo Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Just now, M_Afro said: Some people just do not understand football. It is a team game. The same people who never appreciated Heskey, still do not appreciate Sterling will never appreciate Davis. He is a massive handful. He has massive potential. He is unlikely ever to be a prolific goal scorer but that does not mean he cannot improve the overall effectiveness of our team. Football is about the collective yet so few people seem to understand this most basic of concepts. The way that Bruce sets his teams up means that a Davis type striker is essential. Unfortunately not even Bruce himself seems to understand this basic concept. Guilty as charged - I never rated Heskey either. Football is a simple game - I like strikers who score goals. One with massive potential, or a massive handful don't really appeal to me. Just give me one who will next season put the ball in the net on a regular basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Afro Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 8 minutes ago, hippo said: Guilty as charged - I never rated Heskey either. Football is a simple game - I like strikers who score goals. One with massive potential, or a massive handful don't really appeal to me. Just give me one who will next season put the ball in the net on a regular basis Heskey has 60 odd England caps! Surely the most important thing is that we score more goals than the opposition. Someone like Davis not only creates opportunities for his teammates but also massively relieves pressure on our own defence, limiting opportunities created by the opposition. A simple game and a simple concept indeed. I admit that the very best strikers can be both goal scorers and creators. Those guys are however very few and far between, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 6 minutes ago, M_Afro said: Heskey has 60 odd England caps! Surely the most important thing is that we score more goals than the opposition. Someone like Davis not only creates opportunities for his teammates but also massively relieves pressure on our own defence, limiting opportunities created by the opposition. A simple game and a simple concept indeed. I admit that the very best strikers can be both goal scorers and creators. Those guys are however very few and far between, V - Brian Little and Dennis Mortimer who got 45 minutes between then, don't forget Heskey played for Liverpool - which also ups your England cap count. Davis has no great count in assists though either - last season we have Terry, Jedinak in our defence IMO that was the bigger reason for us being so tight at the back. I don't possibly see how you can justify a strikers inclusion because he helps the defence. The simple concept here is good strikers score goals...period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Afro Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, hippo said: V - Brian Little and Dennis Mortimer who got 45 minutes between then, don't forget Heskey played for Liverpool - which also ups your England cap count. Davis has no great count in assists though either - last season we have Terry, Jedinak in our defence IMO that was the bigger reason for us being so tight at the back. I don't possibly see how you can justify a strikers inclusion because he helps the defence. The simple concept here is good strikers score goals...period. Let’s just agree to disagree. If a striker has the ability to retain possession of the ball, in the final third, he creates time for his teammates to support the attack, he pulls defenders out of position creating space for newly advanced supporting players to exploit and he also prevents the opposition from gaining possession and commencing their own attack. Non of these things are shown as assists or goals scored but their importance to a team is priceless. Compare the above to someone like Hogan. He may score more goals than Davis but what is the aggregate position when Hogan plays? The beauty of football is that different people see the same things in different ways. I am a Villa fan because my dad is from Aston and villa are his team. I have had many arguments with him over the years because we sometimes see the same things in a different light. He is in a hospice now and will probably die in the next 24 hours. I am grateful that I can enter a discussion forum like this and debate this with good Villa fans like yourself because I know I will never be able to do that with him again. That is why I love Villa and also why I love football. We may disagree but we are one big family. I really needed this little debate tonight for my own sanity. One or both or neither of us are right but it feels really good to have the discussion. ITV 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 1 minute ago, M_Afro said: Let’s just agree to disagree. If a striker has the ability to retain possession of the ball, in the final third, he creates time for his teammates to support the attack, he pulls defenders out of position creating space for newly advanced supporting players to exploit and he also prevents the opposition from gaining possession and commencing their own attack. Non of these things are shown as assists or goals scored but their importance to a team is priceless. Compare the above to someone like Hogan. He may score more goals than Davis but what is the aggregate position when Hogan plays? The beauty of football is that different people see the same things in different ways. I am a Villa fan because my dad is from Aston and villa are his team. I have had many arguments with him over the years because we sometimes see the same things in a different light. He is in a hospice now and will probably die in the next 24 hours. I am grateful that I can enter a discussion forum like this and debate this with good Villa fans like yourself because I know I will never be able to do that with him again. That is why I love Villa and also why I love football. We may disagree but we are one big family. I really needed this little debate tonight for my own sanity. One or both or neither of us are right but it feels really good to have the discussion. ITV Tough Job. I am a villa fan because of my dad - he died last year - I miss him greatly. We had some great times at VP together. Best wishes to your Dad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 19 hours ago, hippo said: Still looks short of goals for me. If a reasonable offer £5m+ came I would take the calculated gamble that his lack of goals will continue to plague him. Do all strikers have to score 15-20 a season to be good? It's quite interesting if you look at premier league scores in the 90s compared to now. Back then 10 + used to score 20 league goals, now you get 4-5. It's completely different. Was 4-4-2 in pretty much all teams, now it's 4-5-1 with the lone striker having to hold the ball up and try to stretch play. Davis certainly dosen't look a natural finisher but I find people deriding his ability because of it completely bizarre. Hogan is supposed to be the natural finisher in this squad and we all see how bad he's been for us at simple hold up play. Davis gave imo the best striking performance of the season at home to Norwich and then looked good in the weeks afterwards. He then lost confidence and missed sitters but think he's a promising young talent we need to keep if possible. Him-Green-Adomah-Kodjia. Not selling those four and hoping they stay fit is probably our best bet to avoid a car crash season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, M_Afro said: Let’s just agree to disagree. If a striker has the ability to retain possession of the ball, in the final third, he creates time for his teammates to support the attack, he pulls defenders out of position creating space for newly advanced supporting players to exploit and he also prevents the opposition from gaining possession and commencing their own attack. Non of these things are shown as assists or goals scored but their importance to a team is priceless. Compare the above to someone like Hogan. He may score more goals than Davis but what is the aggregate position when Hogan plays? The beauty of football is that different people see the same things in different ways. I am a Villa fan because my dad is from Aston and villa are his team. I have had many arguments with him over the years because we sometimes see the same things in a different light. He is in a hospice now and will probably die in the next 24 hours. I am grateful that I can enter a discussion forum like this and debate this with good Villa fans like yourself because I know I will never be able to do that with him again. That is why I love Villa and also why I love football. We may disagree but we are one big family. I really needed this little debate tonight for my own sanity. One or both or neither of us are right but it feels really good to have the discussion. ITV Sorry to hear about your dad. I get your point completely and yes not all fans will see that or appreciate it......its one of the dangers in recruitment, if the right kind of scouting has not been done....just to pick a player that has goals next to his name in one season is not enough......If a player scores 20 goals, most seasons and has played for a number of clubs, it may well be, he will repeat it. I don't get all hung up on goals scored, albeit you can't ignore it completely either......Its all about a striker scoring when you need one, which implies his overall game has to be good to do that.....how many points has he won? its not really a testimony to a strikers ability ,when scoring the third and fourth goals every time when the team has a 4-0 romp and draws a blank any other time.....you are right the interaction with other players is crucial. I like to see a front man hold the ball up too.....there are many ways of doing that, but its key to a teams success...( Mitrovic was a perfect example last season) Edited July 15, 2018 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I seriously doubt anyone at premier league level will be after him. However I think he'll be an important player for us next season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I seriously doubt anyone at premier league level will be after him. However I think he'll be an important player for us next season. He has to add things to his game for me.....hope he can do that. He has an ability to shield the ball, but his ball control is iffy......He was also good when he first came in to the first team and then he seemed to fade....maybe the physical demands was getting to him. There is a fair bit of improvement, I would like to see, before I get excited. Edited July 15, 2018 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 2 hours ago, VillaChris said: Do all strikers have to score 15-20 a season to be good? It's quite interesting if you look at premier league scores in the 90s compared to now. Back then 10 + used to score 20 league goals, now you get 4-5. It's completely different. Was 4-4-2 in pretty much all teams, now it's 4-5-1 with the lone striker having to hold the ball up and try to stretch play. Davis certainly dosen't look a natural finisher but I find people deriding his ability because of it completely bizarre. Hogan is supposed to be the natural finisher in this squad and we all see how bad he's been for us at simple hold up play. Davis gave imo the best striking performance of the season at home to Norwich and then looked good in the weeks afterwards. He then lost confidence and missed sitters but think he's a promising young talent we need to keep if possible. Him-Green-Adomah-Kodjia. Not selling those four and hoping they stay fit is probably our best bet to avoid a car crash season. All the more reason why, conceding is more important too. The margins are getting finer and its easier to stop one than score one.....Defending is crucial. IMO.... the first we conceded against QPR, a poor goal to concede considering the personnel defending it.....It was the beginning of our 9 points we threw away, QPR, Bolton & Norwich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) On 14/07/2018 at 21:50, hippo said: Guilty as charged - I never rated Heskey either. Football is a simple game - I like strikers who score goals. One with massive potential, or a massive handful don't really appeal to me. Just give me one who will next season put the ball in the net on a regular basis The thing is Hippo, you have to have a lot of attributes to score lots of goals, in the air or on the ground ......but you have to beat your opponent....it might sound too simple for sense. The times I see our strikers, just stand off, or just run around aimlessly trying to look busy and claim industry.....The front men have to work their man, its no good getting turned over time and time again, the whole team lose interest. I understand that fans have different views and not one is right or wrong.....but players just running alone and claiming a good game, not for me that is the minimum requirement.The game is much more than just running, albeit an important part. No 9 is arguably one of the hardest positions on a football field to play......How many times have we seen our strikers improve on an incremental basis, due to work on the training field. I have seen strikers over recent years come to our club and look no better ,when they have left in a couple of seasons......That never used to happen.....I can think of many from the past that gradually got better with us. Edited July 15, 2018 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 18 hours ago, M_Afro said: Let’s just agree to disagree. If a striker has the ability to retain possession of the ball, in the final third, he creates time for his teammates to support the attack, he pulls defenders out of position creating space for newly advanced supporting players to exploit and he also prevents the opposition from gaining possession and commencing their own attack. Non of these things are shown as assists or goals scored but their importance to a team is priceless. Compare the above to someone like Hogan. He may score more goals than Davis but what is the aggregate position when Hogan plays? The beauty of football is that different people see the same things in different ways. I am a Villa fan because my dad is from Aston and villa are his team. I have had many arguments with him over the years because we sometimes see the same things in a different light. He is in a hospice now and will probably die in the next 24 hours. I am grateful that I can enter a discussion forum like this and debate this with good Villa fans like yourself because I know I will never be able to do that with him again. That is why I love Villa and also why I love football. We may disagree but we are one big family. I really needed this little debate tonight for my own sanity. One or both or neither of us are right but it feels really good to have the discussion. ITV Thoughts are with you. I lost my Dad in 1999 but still find myself having conversations with him in my head whilst sitting on the Holte End. Take all the happy memories with you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 14/07/2018 at 21:50, hippo said: Guilty as charged - I never rated Heskey either. Football is a simple game - I like strikers who score goals. One with massive potential, or a massive handful don't really appeal to me. Just give me one who will next season put the ball in the net on a regular basis We have three at the club who are supposed to be good at that, Kodjia, McCormack and Hogan. Kodjia at least has excuse of injuries after he proved himself in 16/17. The less said about the other two the better. If all three were firing then people would appreciate Kienan Davis's contribution to games more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 On 14/07/2018 at 21:47, M_Afro said: Some people just do not understand football. It is a team game. The same people who never appreciated Heskey, still do not appreciate Sterling will never appreciate Davis. He is a massive handful. He has massive potential. He is unlikely ever to be a prolific goal scorer but that does not mean he cannot improve the overall effectiveness of our team. Football is about the collective yet so few people seem to understand this most basic of concepts. The way that Bruce sets his teams up means that a Davis type striker is essential. Unfortunately not even Bruce himself seems to understand this basic concept. £60,000 a week Emile Heskey thats why i never appreciated him 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junxs Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 On 14/07/2018 at 22:03, M_Afro said: Heskey has 60 odd England caps! Yet scored less international goals than the Paraguay goalkeeper José Luis Chilavert 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stockport_Villain Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 On 14/07/2018 at 18:58, Daweii said: Hard to score when his strike partner doesn't seem to know he exists. I lost count of the times Davis was in a great position to receive a pass and Kodjia ignored him.. That's exactly the point I was just making in the Kodja thread. I also wondered whether there had been a falling out as Davis also did the same on occasions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 He injured as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 10 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: He injured as well? I assume so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSteveUK Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Some rumour that KD will go out on loan when fit - Bruce favouring Green & RHM for pace !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Condimentalist Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I'd be surprised. We're pretty short in area even when everyone is fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts