HanoiVillan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: All hail King Dominic! 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: How much power should an adviser wield? 1 hour ago, blandy said: None at all. But with a weak charachter in post, then they unfortunately have too much power. One feature of British political punditry is its obsessive focus on personality, rather than policy or institutional analysis, and one common personality trope is 'the power behind the throne'. This goes back to Alistair Campbell, and there's probably a lot of other examples from before my time, but Cummings is just one person, not even the PM's only advisor (and not particularly focused on policy either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 The new chancellor is a brave man stepping up a few weeks before the IR35 shitshow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Key criteria is indeed his ability as you point out but to have a Hindu in a key role and in a role that arguably puts him one step away from PM , is certainly a big deal you might not give a shit , but Khan reminds us every 30 secs how he is the son of an immigrant bus driver , a quick google of "posh White boys" and even a search with the VT keywords of "i'm not a labour supporter, but they have more diversity than the Tories " suggests it is a big deal for some I think you're confusing overall picture with specific positional appointments, the argument doesn't really work on the individual level Defining the new Stoog... sorry Chancellor as a Hindu first when he has the background of boarding school, Oxbridge PPE, Higher degree from Sandford, Merchant Banking and Hedge funds. Hindu is rather a distraction, it's same old same old with just less political experience 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Pop quiz - who is now, the longest continuously serving member of the cabinet? Spoiler Probably not a huge surprise therefore, just how screwed everything is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Ooooh, just what this thread needs. More wishful thinking. Much nicer than ugly reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Awol said: Disagree. The PM, as First Lord of the Treasury, should be able to his job without being deliberately undermined from next door. Thatcher and Major, Blair and Brown, May and Hammond, it’s been a feature of, and a contributor towards dysfunctional government. Ensuring all ministers and departments are focused on delivering government policy, which is agreed by Cabinet, is exactly how things are meant to work. I'm sorry but Cabinet government does not mean that the PM gets to dictate every aspect of policy and the Cabinet has to agree or that the PM gets to (or has to or 'is meant to') control and micromanage every department of state lest anyone else has any power. Government policy is meant to be agreed by Government not dictated by No. 10 and its advisor. We have in the last four decades seen a move away from this and an increasing concentration of power in the hands of the PM (and whichever specific advisor it might be - Cummings now, Campbell before, Alan Walters, &c.), which is arguably what has stoked the fires for other postholders within cabinet (such as some of the examples you've mentioned), at the same time as a move away from Parliamentary scrutiny of Government. What you have now is almost the pinnacle of a double whammy: a more powerful executive than ever before (see all of the power invested in it by the Henry VIII powers and secondary legislation from the various, under-scrutinised Acts passed in recent times) and, then, a further concentration of these increased powers in the hands of one individual. This is not 'how Government is meant to operate' and to claim that it is looks like strongman & strong Government fetishism at its worst. Quote The fact we’ve become accustomed to it not working is evident in the horror at that being corrected. The fact that people think what is happening is what is 'meant to be' is evidence of the road down which we've traveled over the past forty or so years not of any 'correction' being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 45 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: arguably puts him one step away from PM Who is making that argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Pop quiz - who is now, the longest continuously serving member of the cabinet? I genuinely got that without peeking! I think your line after the spoiler gave it away - given that Grayling's not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2020 Author Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Awol said: The wider point is the Treasury acting as power base and platform from which to challenge the authority of No.10, I can't agree with that, really. The PM obviously appoints whoever they want to the job. That job is arguably the second most important -so the PM gives whoever that platform. You're right that Brown wanted to have a go at being PM becuase him and Blair had agreed to do that in some London gaff, some years before. It wasn't a treasury v PM thing, it was about a personal deal/promise. Chancellors are only a challenge to the PM if the PM has no/small majority or authority. No such issue with Johnson, even though he's a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I see the Braverman appointment has been confirmed. Quite astonishing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, blandy said: I can't agree with that, really. The PM obviously appoints whoever they want to the job. That job is arguably the second most important -so the PM gives whoever that platform. You're right that Brown wanted to have a go at being PM becuase him and Blair had agreed to do that in some London gaff, some years before. It wasn't a treasury v PM thing, it was about a personal deal/promise. Chancellors are only a challenge to the PM if the PM has no/small majority or authority. No such issue with Johnson, even though he's a turd. the deal agreed at the restaurant was about Brown getting full autonomy as shadow chancellor ( and then chancellor) on economic and social policy ( as well as an agreement to stand down during a second term as PM) ... Throughout the Blair tenure it very much became a treasury v PM thing on issues such as the Euro , foundation hospitals , university top-up fees 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 44 minutes ago, snowychap said: I'm sorry but Cabinet government does not mean that the PM gets to dictate every aspect of policy and the Cabinet has to agree or that the PM gets to (or has to or 'is meant to') control and micromanage every department of state lest anyone else has any power. No need to be sorry, you’re arguing something I didn’t say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted February 13, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Awol said: The briefing against Blair by Brown’s team was epic and really the beginning of the end of New Labour, splitting the government. Blair wanted to sack him but never had the balls. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, Awol said: No need to be sorry, you’re arguing something I didn’t say. You sorta did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 13, 2020 Author Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: Throughout the Blair tenure it very much became a treasury v PM thing on issues such as the Euro , foundation hospitals , university top-up fees My hazy recollection is that's not the right timeline. It was once Blair didn't signal what he'd promised to do (stand down for Gordie mid 2nd term, as you say) that things got a bit antsy - till then they worked well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 hour ago, blandy said: I can't agree with that, really. The PM obviously appoints whoever they want to the job. That job is arguably the second most important -so the PM gives whoever that platform. You're right that Brown wanted to have a go at being PM becuase him and Blair had agreed to do that in some London gaff, some years before. It wasn't a treasury v PM thing, it was about a personal deal/promise. Chancellors are only a challenge to the PM if the PM has no/small majority or authority. No such issue with Johnson, even though he's a turd. It depends what we mean by 'challenge to the PM' doesn't it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 55 minutes ago, Awol said: No need to be sorry, you’re arguing something I didn’t say. You may not have said the control and micromanage bit (it's a touch of hyperbole - shoot me) but you certainly said that 'how things are meant to work' was about members being subordinate to the PM thus logically implying that their will, decisions and opinions are subordinate to those of the PM. Cabinet and Government will and policy are thus that of the PM which the Cabinet simply have to collectively back. That isn't Cabinet government and it isn't 'how things are meant to work' or how things used to be (welll, if you go back a century or two, perhaps) though I fully accept that it may be how some would like things to work (there is a vast difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, ml1dch said: Pop quiz - who is now, the longest continuously serving member of the cabinet? Hide contents Probably not a huge surprise therefore, just how screwed everything is. Yep, definitely a long standing member here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 55 minutes ago, snowychap said: You may not have said the control and micromanage bit (it's a touch of hyperbole - shoot me) but you certainly said that 'how things are meant to work' was about members being subordinate to the PM thus logically implying that their will, decisions and opinions are subordinate to those of the PM. Cabinet and Government will and policy are thus that of the PM which the Cabinet simply have to collectively back. That isn't Cabinet government and it isn't 'how things are meant to work' or how things used to be (welll, if you go back a century or two, perhaps) though I fully accept that it may be how some would like things to work (there is a vast difference). I wrote that the Treasury should be subordinate to the First Lord of the Treasury - the PM. I also wrote that decisions should be made in Cabinet and then implemented across government, by all relevant ministers and departments (the opposite of your accusation). The idea is to stop individuals and their teams freelancing and pursuing their own agendas. I maintain that’s exactly how our system is supposed to work. You’re reading something into posts that actually said the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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