Adama Traore

[markavfc40]

9 minutes ago, sexbelowsound said:

That's a fair point but Garde is clearly trying to solidify us as a team. We are incredibly fragile and having a player who is playing his own game doesn't help that. Like it or not this appears to be Garde's approach.

 

Being more solid when you haven't won for 15 games and are 8 points adrift shouldn't be the managers main concern now though. We have to win games. We have to be gung ho. This lad is a loose cannon, totally unpredictable but potentially a match winner which you can't say about many players at this club.

Giving him just five minutes today was a joke and a waste of time but he still showed more threat in that five minutes than pretty much all the others who played today. He needs to start the next game in a team that is set up both formation wise and mentality to go for it.

Edited December 13, 2015 by markavfc40

[sexbelowsound]

Just now, DCJonah said:

He'd give us more of a chance than most players in this squad.

Hopefully we'll get to see that then soon.

[sexbelowsound]

2 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Being more solid when you haven't won for 15 games and are 8 points adrift shouldn't be the managers main concern now though. We have to win games. We have to be gung ho. This lad is a loose cannon, totally unpredictable but potentially a match winner which you can't say about many payers at this club.

Giving him five minutes today was a joke and a waste of time but he still showed more threat in that five minutes than pretty much all the others who played today. He needs to start the next game in a team that is set up both formation wise and mentality to go for it.

I'm not disputing any of that. I was just giving reasons for why I don't think he has started.

[HanoiVillan]

4 minutes ago, supernova26 said:

And he's clearly doing a bad job. as is anyone arguing against Adama starting.

Very bad.

The Hotle knows, and I know.

He's the only player capable of keeping us up. Not an opinion, but a fact. 

More buffoonery. Maybe your French is better than your English, you certainly seem to be confused about the meaning of the word 'fact'. 

[penguin]

14 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Are you kidding? We're not talking about a kickaround with mates. 

It was a valid question. Possession in itself is essentially pointless if there is no purpose to the play. Leicester average possession this year - 44.2%, Watford - 46.6%, Palace - 46.9%. It's what you do with the ball.

I'd argue playing a possession style with a team not particularly suited to it, like ours IMO, is detrimental.

[DCJonah]

What do we do with the ball? We don't create decent chances, we don't control the tempo of the game. Why would anyone think more of what we've been doing is the way forward? 

It's hail Mary time. It's time to go for gambles with high rewards. 

Adama needs to start much more often.

[HanoiVillan]

Just now, penguin said:

It was a valid question. Possession in itself is essentially pointless if there is no purpose to the play. Leicester average possession this year - 44.2%, Watford - 46.6%, Palace - 46.9%. It's what you do with the ball.

I'd argue playing a possession style with a team not particularly suited to it, like ours IMO, is detrimental.

It would be a valid question if it hadn't already been established that Traore loses the ball with great frequency. He isn't Mahrez, or Abdi, or Bolasie or Zaha. He's not as good as any of those players, because even when he gets the ball, he just runs into trouble, and we've already seen how quickly teams can adapt to double mark him out of the game. 

I've already said I'm fine with him starting next week. Maybe he'll pull a rabbit out of a hat. But it's really very far more likely that if he does start, he'll be utterly ineffective and we'll be reading posts in this thread saying 'why give a guy who's so obviously raw 90 mins, he's clearly nothing more than an impact substitute'. It's also quite hilarious to note the double standards of certain posters who think Kozak never gets selected because the manager sees that he wouldn't add anything every day during training, but yet can't see that the same logic applies exactly to Traore. 

[DCJonah]

He loses the ball a lot because he attempts to attack a lot. You can't honestly prefer what you've seen in the last 16 games. What good has attempting to keep the ball more done for us? 

I can accept what Garde sees in training but I think Garde is more worried about what Adama won't do rather than what he will. I don't think Garde has a lack of faith in his ability, I think at this moment he's too afraid to really go all out attacking. Not the same as Kozak, who he clearly doesn't rate at all.

Edited December 13, 2015 by DCJonah

[Richard]

We have no hope , we are down we have a shit team , we have players of poor skill, no effort, no confidence, afraid to do anything. We have nothing nothing as a team. We have nothing to lose to put him in the starting line up at least he excites fans. He may not be the finished article he may be raw he may not have it all but at least he has something which is more than most of the others we have

[penguin]

I don't really think anything has been established with him, coming on in the dying moments of games isn't going to paint a true picture of his play-style as he's going to feel pressure to show his quality, although he obviously is a very greedy player. I don't think I'd start himself, just yet, but he certainly needs to be getting more than 5 minutes especially in games like today where Sinclair was clearly ineffective for a vast period in the 2nd half and the game needed a change.

I think the comparison to Kozak is a bit forced and just seems like an excuse to score some points tbh; Traore has shown he has the ability change games and clearly has great quality so people want him to be given a chance. People's main reason for wanting Kozak to be given a chance seems to be because he can't be any worse.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I don't really think anything has been established with him, coming on in the dying moments of games isn't going to paint a true picture of his play-style as he's going to feel pressure to show his quality, although he obviously is a very greedy player. I don't think I'd start himself, just yet, but he certainly needs to be getting more than 5 minutes especially in games like today where Sinclair was clearly ineffective for a vast period in the 2nd half and the game needed a change.

I think the comparison to Kozak is a bit forced and just seems like an excuse to score some points tbh; Traore has shown he has the ability change games and clearly has great quality so people want him to be given a chance. People's main reason for wanting Kozak to be given a chance seems to be because he can't be any worse.

Why wouldn't you start him? What do we have to lose by doing so?

He came on, beat 4 players and hit a wicked strike just wide. With his first touches of the ball. I'd rather start him, Gil and Ayew up front set the other 8 players to defend than watch the disjointed mess that we have now. I feel like every minute he's fit and NOT starting right now is a criminal offence.

I don't mind him giving the ball away 50%, heck even 80% of the time. It's what he does when he doesn't that I'm interested in. He's phenomenal. Not a single soul outside of these boards and our fanbase in general can understand why he isn't the very first name on the teamsheet. I'm with them.

[kurtsimonw]

It makes no sense to me. As DDID says, who cares if he gives the ball away? Most forwards do, that's kind of what happens when you're outnumbered by opposition players. Continuing to play the same way is going to get us relegated, obviously. Changing things, it could possibly give us a chance of staying up.

[GeordieVillan]

If he's only fit to play half of a game, lets play him in the first half - hopefully he can do something to give us the lead and we can hold on to it. At the minute he comes on when we are behind and have a mountain to climb.

[penguin]

3 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Why wouldn't you start him? What do we have to lose by doing so?

He came on, beat 4 players and hit a wicked strike just wide. With his first touches of the ball. I'd rather start him, Gil and Ayew up front set the other 8 players to defend than watch the disjointed mess that we have now. I feel like every minute he's fit and NOT starting right now is a criminal offence.

I don't mind him giving the ball away 50%, heck even 80% of the time. It's what he does when he doesn't that I'm interested in. He's phenomenal. Not a single soul outside of these boards and our fanbase in general can understand why he isn't the very first name on the teamsheet. I'm with them.

I understand what you are saying completely and I certainly wouldn't be against him starting games by any means. I just feel that teams start games more cautiously, feeling each other out and obviously completely fresh-legged (is that a term). I think maximum value and effectiveness would be had him coming on when the other team has settled into their rhythm and there are some tired legs. 

[HanoiVillan]

12 minutes ago, penguin said:

I don't really think anything has been established with him, coming on in the dying moments of games isn't going to paint a true picture of his play-style as he's going to feel pressure to show his quality, although he obviously is a very greedy player. I don't think I'd start himself, just yet, but he certainly needs to be getting more than 5 minutes especially in games like today where Sinclair was clearly ineffective for a vast period in the 2nd half and the game needed a change.

I think the comparison to Kozak is a bit forced and just seems like an excuse to score some points tbh; Traore has shown he has the ability change games and clearly has great quality so people want him to be given a chance. People's main reason for wanting Kozak to be given a chance seems to be because he can't be any worse.

He's not a Villa youth. We signed him from another team. He was captain of that team, which got relegated from the Spanish second division. He's not a totally unknown quantity, and he has a history in the game. 

The comparison to Kozak isn't forced at all. Your interpretation of people's opinions in the Kozak thread isn't accurate. There was literally an interminable 7-day debate about whether or not 'he's a proven goal scorer'; it certainly isn't the case that people only wanted him because he 'can't be any worse'. As it happens, I agree with DCJonah about Kozak, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Traore has mostly looked good in U21 games and against Notts County in the League Cup. That's not the same standard as the Premier League. Garde isn't picking him for a reason. 

[Hanky]

I don't understand why we didn't chuck him and one of Grealish or Gil at half time today. 2-0 down and nothing to lose. For me that was ridiculous.

[DCJonah]

5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He's not a Villa youth. We signed him from another team. He was captain of that team, which got relegated from the Spanish second division. He's not a totally unknown quantity, and he has a history in the game. 

The comparison to Kozak isn't forced at all. Your interpretation of people's opinions in the Kozak thread isn't accurate. There was literally an interminable 7-day debate about whether or not 'he's a proven goal scorer'; it certainly isn't the case that people only wanted him because he 'can't be any worse'. As it happens, I agree with DCJonah about Kozak, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Traore has mostly looked good in U21 games and against Notts County in the League Cup. That's not the same standard as the Premier League. Garde isn't picking him for a reason. 

He's also shown at palace and today that he can have amazing moments at premier league level. Garde is picking him in the squad and using him, completely different to Kozak. There must be a reason why Garde doesn't want to use more of him at the moment but I think that will change very shortly.

[Brumstopdogs]

IMO Traore should be starting - give him a decent run in this team and let's see how he gets on.

[HanoiVillan]

Just now, DCJonah said:

He's also shown at palace and today that he can have amazing moments at premier league level. Garde is picking him in the squad and using him, completely different to Kozak. There must be a reason why Garde doesn't want to use more of him at the moment but I think that will change very shortly.

The difference is much less than you're making out. He 'used him' today by bringing him off the bench with five minutes remaining after the game was already lost, and he's been absent from the 18 under Garde when fit before. 

Whether he'll start more in the future - I'm sure he will. He could hardly start less, when he's never started in the league before. Whether he'll start frequently or regularly - we'll see. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. Pretty much impossible to predict really. 

I've already said I'm fine with him starting next week - the argument that 'it can't get any worse' is really pretty valid. I wouldn't be betting any money on him starting though. And - the point of this conversation - I think he's unlikely (though not certain!) to make any particular positive difference. 

[penguin]

4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

He's not a Villa youth. We signed him from another team. He was captain of that team, which got relegated from the Spanish second division. He's not a totally unknown quantity, and he has a history in the game. 

The comparison to Kozak isn't forced at all. Your interpretation of people's opinions in the Kozak thread isn't accurate. There was literally an interminable 7-day debate about whether or not 'he's a proven goal scorer'; it certainly isn't the case that people only wanted him because he 'can't be any worse'. As it happens, I agree with DCJonah about Kozak, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Traore has mostly looked good in U21 games and against Notts County in the League Cup. That's not the same standard as the Premier League. Garde isn't picking him for a reason. 

It wasn't so much a debate as an argument of semantics and few people making wild baseless claims, so the majority sensible argument seemed to boil to he was worth a go because he couldn't be any worse than Gestede. But we'll just have agree to disagree there at the risk of going wildy off-topic.

I just think Garde thinks he's not ready, he may have a point, but it's looking increasingly clear to a lot of people that he needs to be given a shot. And I will be extremely surprised if he doesn't play 30+ minutes in the next game, and play well, barring an injury or any other unforeseen circumstances.