The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[HanoiVillan]

20 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Is it a position of a strength? She was Labours "National Campaign Coordinator" in an election where they were thoroughly licked. I'd say it's hard to argue that she shouldn't be held highly (although by no means totally) culpable.

I think there's two points I would make in response.

Firstly, she was 'campaign coordinator' largely in name only; absolutely everybody knows that the English campaigns - especially Hartlepool - were run out of the leader's office, and nobody knows that more than Labour MPs.

Secondly, the position of strength is not the elections themselves, but the fact that Starmer proved basically unable to sack her, because so many MPs rallied around her yesterday. If you try to sack someone but realise you can't, you pretty much inevitably put them in a stronger positon.

[Davkaus]

I imagine there is some game theory going on in people's heads at the moment to figure out when the best time is to strike. We're still years from a GE, so senior figures may want to bide their time to not lose their chance to be the shiny, exciting new opposition, but at the same time they probably don't want the current leadership to continue for *too* much longer, because years of poor polling isn't going to help matters.

To complicate things, there's the news that the tories are planning to abolish the FTPA so a snap election will be on the way if Labour look particularly weak, which won't give enough time for a leadership challenge.

It's a tricky one, but whenever or however it happens, I don't see Starmer being the leader when the next GE comes around

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

To complicate things, there's the news that the tories are planning to abolish the FTPA so a snap election will be on the way if Labour look particularly weak, which won't give enough time for a leadership challenge.

They may well abolish the FTPA (and so they should tbh) but I can't see that leading to an early General Election just yet given their current standing. The electorate really won't take kindly to yet another GE, 2 years after the last one which was 2 years after the one before, which again was 2 years after the one before that.

I think another election so soon after the previous 3 will be a huge gamble on their part

 

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

I think another election so soon after the previous 3 will be a huge gamble on their part

I agree with you, I don't think they'll have one - I'm not sure I'd go so far as 'huge gamble' though, there's absolutely no risk for them right now. 

Of the two leaders, I'd say Johnson is less at threat from the Labour party than Starmer is.

 

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think there's two points I would make in response.

Firstly, she was 'campaign coordinator' largely in name only; absolutely everybody knows that the English campaigns - especially Hartlepool - were run out of the leader's office, and nobody knows that more than Labour MPs.

Secondly, the position of strength is not the elections themselves, but the fact that Starmer proved basically unable to sack her, because so many MPs rallied around her yesterday. If you try to sack someone but realise you can't, you pretty much inevitably put them in a stronger positon.

I just don't buy that it's a sham position and she had no say over how those campaigns were fought (and lost). Sure the leader has the ultimate power and that's why I'd say she's not entirely to blame but certainly there's an element of delegation that has to happen in any large organisation. When someone fails at a role that's been delegated to them it's not unreasonable for them to carry the can.

Your second point is probably one of the big problems with the party as it exists now. When the leader (presumably?) wants to take the party in a certain direction, and has an elected mandate to do so but can't because the PLP is so resistant.

[Davkaus]

23 minutes ago, bickster said:

They may well abolish the FTPA (and so they should tbh) but I can't see that leading to an early General Election just yet given their current standing. The electorate really won't take kindly to yet another GE, 2 years after the last one which was 2 years after the one before, which again was 2 years after the one before that.

I think another election so soon after the previous 3 will be a huge gamble on their part

 

I agree there certainly won't be one this year, but they're not abolishing it for a laugh, they're doing so in order to be able to strategically call a GE when it works best for them, and I'd be very surprised if it ends up being at the expected 5 yearly interval.

If that does pass, and it almost certainly will, it'll need to be a key consideration for the senior Labour party figures when weighing up timing for a leadership contest, they'll need to consider that an election could be called with 6 weeks' notice.

If I were a sneaky tory bastard who'd just abolished the FTPA, I'd think about calling an election within hours of Labour making a move on Starmer to cause maximum chaos. Could backfire, but "it's me or this party that doesn't even have a leader" could make for an interesting election  

Edited May 10, 2021 by Davkaus

[bickster]

10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I agree with you, I don't think they'll have one - I'm not sure I'd go so far as 'huge gamble' though, there's absolutely no risk for them right now. 

Of the two leaders, I'd say Johnson is less at threat from the Labour party than Starmer is.

 

Yep, true but I do think its a huge gamble, the new "Red Wall" Tory voters for instance are former Labour Voters and they aren't the ones that come out when it's raining, or vote out of some deep sense of exercising their rights etc, thats the old school Tory voter not the new one and they aren't that died in the wool Tory yet, they aren't that attached to the party

[Chindie]

 

[OutByEaster?]

38 minutes ago, bickster said:

Yep, true but I do think its a huge gamble, the new "Red Wall" Tory voters for instance are former Labour Voters and they aren't the ones that come out when it's raining, or vote out of some deep sense of exercising their rights etc, thats the old school Tory voter not the new one and they aren't that died in the wool Tory yet, they aren't that attached to the party

But they aren't coming out for anyone - the dyed in the wool Tories will come out, but they'll be on their own when they get there.

I don't think the Tories would want an election, but they're so comfortably ahead right now that they can do what they like.

 

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

 

 

...or as the woman on the vox pop this morning said, ‘I’ve lived in Batley all me life and I’ve always voted labour, but they’re full of posh boys now, so I’ll be voting conservative this time’.

I was listening to that and thinking, I don’t think there’s any strategy that can combat that sort of thought process.

But then, 5 minutes later, they spoke to Shabana Mahmood MP and she came out with a load of advertising speak the Train Guy would have been proud of. I paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of ‘we need to reconnect and find a space to speak to people’s stories, to reflect the aspirations of the disenfranchised, to really reach out and hear’. Words to that effect.

I was listening to that and thinking, Jesus **** Christ on a bike it’ll be another 10 years.

 

 

[blandy]

6 hours ago, darrenm said:

It's full of human beings who aren't sociopaths therefore they won't all unite around a common purpose of power.

You know football teams, sports teams, teams at work, teams in charities, teams in basically every walk of life....

Sure, from time to time a team will get all raggedy and agenda-y, but mostly they do fine. United, even if they don't all like each other...

[bickster]

37 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

...or as the woman on the vox pop this morning said, ‘I’ve lived in Batley all me life and I’ve always voted labour, but they’re full of posh boys now, so I’ll be voting conservative this time’.

I was listening to that and thinking, I don’t think there’s any strategy that can combat that sort of thought process.

But then, 5 minutes later, they spoke to Shabana Mahmood MP and she came out with a load of advertising speak the Train Guy would have been proud of. I paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of ‘we need to reconnect and find a space to speak to people’s stories, to reflect the aspirations of the disenfranchised, to really reach out and hear’. Words to that effect.

I was listening to that and thinking, Jesus **** Christ on a bike it’ll be another 10 years.

 

 

It was the same on 5Live this morning, Nicky Campbell was asking some Labour Bod who is now the new Strategy person (I think) a few questions, they were a bit loaded but nothing she shouldnt have been expecting after the weekend and what came out of her mouth can only be described as meaningless aimless drivel. I have no idea who she is and I have no desire to find out. The only thing I know she was talking about was moving forward and there were at least two "at the end of the day"'s in there.

 

[HanoiVillan]

It's kind of funny that there's actually a by-election this very week, on Thursday, which had completely passed me by . . .

It's for Airdrie & Shotts. The SNP MP resigned to become an MSP. It's an incredible sign of Labour's collapse in Scotland that absolutely no-one is talking about this. Among other things, it used to be John Reid's seat, Labour used to score roughly 60% of the vote until 2010, and Labour lost by less than 200 votes in 2017.

Now, crickets.

[darrenm]

Is it possible to come back from this?

 

[HanoiVillan]

One thing I would advise Labour figures to do, in all seriousness, is stop going on about how everybody hates them.

'it's clear we've lost the trust of the voters'

'we have lost sight of the needs of voters in areas we have won'

'we're not addressing the needs of real people'

Maybe just shut up about it to be honest lads.

[Demitri_C]

57 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Is it possible to come back from this?

 

Wow thats bad, really bad when you consider your opposition is bloody boris johnson as well 

[tinker]

20 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

...or as the woman on the vox pop this morning said, ‘I’ve lived in Batley all me life and I’ve always voted labour, but they’re full of posh boys now, so I’ll be voting conservative this time’.

I was listening to that and thinking, I don’t think there’s any strategy that can combat that sort of thought process.

But then, 5 minutes later, they spoke to Shabana Mahmood MP and she came out with a load of advertising speak the Train Guy would have been proud of. I paraphrase, but it was something along the lines of ‘we need to reconnect and find a space to speak to people’s stories, to reflect the aspirations of the disenfranchised, to really reach out and hear’. Words to that effect.

I was listening to that and thinking, Jesus **** Christ on a bike it’ll be another 10 years.

 

 

Politics is more about marketing than policy, these people want to connect with people who sound and talk like them.

Why Boris then? He keeps his message clear and consistent and it wins against the mixed messages labour keeps giving out and then changing. 

They need to change their leader to one who talks with conviction and keep their message consistent and targets the Conservatives weaknesses , not all of them, just ones that will cause damage. Then hit them time and time again until they cause damage. Things like.... NHS underfunding  and Grenfell should and would damage them to a point Labour could challenge in 3 years time.

Complicated well thought out policies are not attracting votes, only start a fight you can win. 

 

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

One thing I would advise Labour figures to do, in all seriousness, is stop going on about how everybody hates them.

'it's clear we've lost the trust of the voters'

'we have lost sight of the needs of voters in areas we have won'

'we're not addressing the needs of real people'

Maybe just shut up about it to be honest lads.

If Dean Smith went out and talked about how much the team is lacking after every loss, the team would quickly turn on him.

Surely any leader must have a bit more of a drive to make his team/party think they are a bit better than they actually are and install some sort of a 'winner mentality' ?

[meregreen]

40 minutes ago, tinker said:

Politics is more about marketing than policy, these people want to connect with people who sound and talk like them.

Why Boris then? He keeps his message clear and consistent and it wins against the mixed messages labour keeps giving out and then changing. 

They need to change their leader to one who talks with conviction and keep their message consistent and targets the Conservatives weaknesses , not all of them, just ones that will cause damage. Then hit them time and time again until they cause damage. Things like.... NHS underfunding  and Grenfell should and would damage them to a point Labour could challenge in 3 years time.

Complicated well thought out policies are not attracting votes, only start a fight you can win. 

 

One thing Boris Johnson is not, and never has been, is clear and consistent. He has always lied through his teeth, and bent with the wind in order to further his own ends. You only have to look at his attitude to Brexit, where he wrote two diametrically opposite statements with regard to the referendum. He’d always been in favour of membership, and only changed when he saw his chance to grab the leadership of the Tory Party. Max Hastings said he was the most untrustworthy, duplicitous charlatan he had ever known when he was writing for the Telegraph. People may vote for him, though God knows why, but it certainly isn’t because he has any clear and consistent messaging. 

[HanoiVillan]

19 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

If Dean Smith went out and talked about how much the team is lacking after every loss, the team would quickly turn on him.

Surely any leader must have a bit more of a drive to make his team/party think they are a bit better than they actually are and install some sort of a 'winner mentality' ?

Yes. If you keep telling everyone you're a pathetic loser, sooner or later people will start agreeing.