The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[bickster]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Co-operatives aren't a bad idea at all but it all depends on where and how they are applied. This is just an example of his utopian 'thinking'.

They are in this industry, most taxi co-operatives will have a year vote to vote in key personnel to a job in the company, overseeing say ... the call centre, because they think it’s important to have driver / owner input in that area and they’ll vote in someone who the think will “kick ass” etc. It usually means they elect a gobshite who upsets the call centre staff, they leave and new staff have to be trained, increasing cost and decreasing the skill base and staff morale. The kick ass gobshite cant be removed until the election the next year. Next year the drivers realise that it’s going wrong so they elect a different version of the same idiot. Rinse and repeat...

I've actually witnessed the above first hand more than once.

[veloman]

I wonder what The Rochdale Pioneers would have made of the situation today !!

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, veloman said:

I wonder what The Rochdale Pioneers would have made of the situation today !!

 

They’d all have a handbag full of loyalty cards

[HanoiVillan]

You might not have noticed, as it doesn't seem to have been mentioned much by the media, but those National Action types turn out to have been encouraging each other to murder Labour MP Rosie Cooper:

'The alleged leader of a neo-Nazi terrorist group has been charged with calling on followers to murder a Labour MP.

Rosie Cooper, who represents West Lancashire, confirmed she was the subject of alleged "encouragement to murder" by Christopher Lythgoe.

"I would like to thank everyone involved in this case, especially the counter-terrorism police, for keeping me, my staff and the public safe," she said.

Mr Lythgoe, of Warrington, was one of 11 suspects arrested during a crackdown on National Action in September.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/national-action-leader-christopher-lythgoe-neo-nazi-terrorist-group-banned-incitement-murder-a8021621.html?amp

[colhint]

Good. Not what he said, of course, but good that he's been arrested. i hope he gets time.

[dAVe80]

Although I've seen them up close, and they struck me as being just a spotty bunch of Nazi, scumbags, it's worrying that these are still active,  despite being a proscribed group. In a way I'm glad this has had little press, as giving them as little publicity as possible is counter to what they want.

[chrisp65]

Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North, 76 years old, suspended for allegations of rubbing himself on a younger woman. Younger by 50 years. Why on earth she didn't fall for his charms I can't imagine.

 

[tonyh29]

16 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North, 76 years old, suspended for allegations of rubbing himself on a younger woman. Younger by 50 years. Why on earth she didn't fall for his charms I can't imagine.

 

I had visions in my old age of going into a care home and it being like an episode of Benny Hill where I get to chase the young nurses around the place ... beginning to think now that perhaps women don't actually enjoy this and that TV lied to me again 

[Wainy316]

Can't these people just have a wank or something?  (at home).

[Xela]

21 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Kelvin Hopkins, MP for Luton North, 76 years old, suspended for allegations of rubbing himself on a younger woman. Younger by 50 years. Why on earth she didn't fall for his charms I can't imagine.

 

I need to revisit my strategy as well.

[dAVe80]

Very proud of my comrade, and friend, who has just held a Labour council seat, in a local by-election in Darlington. She's become the youngest ever councillor in the town, in doing so also. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by dAVe80

[dAVe80]

[OutByEaster?]

Noel was a Blairite - he's always been Tory.

 

[markavfc40]

34 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Noel was a Blairite - he's always been Tory.

 

I was going to say something similar. I remember all the love ins and cool Britannia bollocks in 97. 

[peterms]

On 27/10/2017 at 11:44, bickster said:

They are in this industry, most taxi co-operatives will have a year vote to vote in key personnel to a job in the company, overseeing say ... the call centre, because they think it’s important to have driver / owner input in that area and they’ll vote in someone who the think will “kick ass” etc. It usually means they elect a gobshite who upsets the call centre staff, they leave and new staff have to be trained, increasing cost and decreasing the skill base and staff morale. The kick ass gobshite cant be removed until the election the next year. Next year the drivers realise that it’s going wrong so they elect a different version of the same idiot. Rinse and repeat...

I've actually witnessed the above first hand more than once.

Sounds like a pretty ill-informed attempt at a co-op.  There are people who could advise them how to do it better.

There's an interesting question about whether people who choose that line of work are well suited to a co-op model.  It sounds like the classic example of an organisation which its members see as being there mainly to serve their own individual interests.  Charles Handy discusses this in "the gods of management". Other examples include barristers and hospital consultants - the organisation is a necessary evil to provide them with work, and they want as little interference with their personal autonomy as possible.

I see Nef are crowdfunding for a co-op platform alternative to Uber, which is probably what Corbyn is talking about.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

Sounds like a pretty ill-informed attempt at a co-op.  There are people who could advise them how to do it better.

There's an interesting question about whether people who choose that line of work are well suited to a co-op model.  It sounds like the classic example of an organisation which its members see as being there mainly to serve their own individual interests.  Charles Handy discusses this in "the gods of management". Other examples include barristers and hospital consultants - the organisation is a necessary evil to provide them with work, and they want as little interference with their personal autonomy as possible.

I see Nef are crowdfunding for a co-op platform alternative to Uber, which is probably what Corbyn is talking about.

I don't see how, they represent 90% of Glasgow's Hackney Carriages. And they are probably the best run Taxi Co-Op in the UK. The problem as you state in your second paragraph is that they are only there to serve their own self-interests. WHilst being the best run, they also suffer from many problems as the drivers hold all the cards and as the majority will always vote for what they perceive to be their best interests even though they actually aren't

A taxi Co-Op doesn't really serve the public. What the best Taxi booking companies do is strike that balance between the drivers and the public. For example... in a taxi co-op a driver doesn't want to do a job, he asks to have the job taken off him and the controller will nearly always grant the request, delaying the passenger... a decent taxi company will tell the driver to continue with the booking as once he's acce[pted the booking he's contractually obliged to continue with is as per the terms and conditions of his contract.

Also, Corbyn will also find that under a large Taxi Co-Op such as the aforementioned Glasgow Taxi's Trade Union membership dramatically decreases. The trade union has no purpose as all the negotiations with the council over tariffs is done via the Co-Op and that is just about THE only thing a trade union does for Hackney Carriage drivers. Its hilarious in Liverpool, about half the HC drivers are in the union, Unite lobby the council for fare increases, they get them because the Labour Council do as they are told. The other half of the drivers then whinge like hell that the council are killing the trade because they are pushing the prices ever higher (yet still charge the maximum they can the hypocritical words removed). Recently after said lobbying the council put the fares up but also introduced a new tariff for between 2am and 6am on a Sunday morning. The justification for this was that it would encourage more drivers to work this period and increase supply, the only problem being that even before this, the HC drivers were sat on ranks getting no fares because everyone considers them too expensive and used cheaper alternatives. The cheaper alternatives now appear to be cheaper still

Unions kill the industry, Co-Ops are highly inefficient and neither really serve the public

[peterms]

12 hours ago, bickster said:

I don't see how, they represent 90% of Glasgow's Hackney Carriages. And they are probably the best run Taxi Co-Op in the UK. The problem as you state in your second paragraph is that they are only there to serve their own self-interests. WHilst being the best run, they also suffer from many problems as the drivers hold all the cards and as the majority will always vote for what they perceive to be their best interests even though they actually aren't

The same issue arises for a lone individual, a co-op, and a private company - what do you do with the jobs you don't fancy?  You can turn them down, charge a premium reflecting what you think it's worth and see if anyone is desperate enough to pay it, or else make clear that you don't offer that service at all.  Private companies turn down jobs frequently.  In the case of taxi firms, if a dominant one routinely turns down customers then I suppose there's a market solution if someone else can offer a different service, or possibly a regulatory one if the licensing authority wants to ensure that the firm doesn't just cherry-pick in the way that private bus firms try to offer only the most profitable routes.  Maybe those solutions don't work - what do you do if all the pubs and restaurants in a small town are shit, or (today's news) no bank wants to run a branch there?  It's an issue of market failure to me, not something especially associated with one type of management.

12 hours ago, bickster said:

A taxi Co-Op doesn't really serve the public. What the best Taxi booking companies do is strike that balance between the drivers and the public. For example... in a taxi co-op a driver doesn't want to do a job, he asks to have the job taken off him and the controller will nearly always grant the request, delaying the passenger... a decent taxi company will tell the driver to continue with the booking as once he's acce[pted the booking he's contractually obliged to continue with is as per the terms and conditions of his contract.

That's a management issue, isn't it?  Any organisation has to find a balance between the producer interest and the consumer interest, and manage its affairs accordingly.  John Lewis manages to get the toilets cleaned, though probably most of the "partners" aren't too keen on that job.  If organisations get the balance too wrong in either direction, there are problems.  In the case of a taxi co-op, surely a well-run one would reach agreement between members that if they turn down jobs for poor reasons, or too often, or at times when replacements can't be found, then some kind of action will be taken, up to and including dismissal.  If they don't do that, then they are running a risk, and maybe a dominant market position and lack of competition will protect them, maybe it won't.  Looking at Ryanair, who are also in the "taxi" business (sorry), their cock-up a few months back was interesting because they seemed to assume first that customers would continue to use them because of price and could be treated with the customary arrogance, but then they seemed to become uncertain and started rowing back, even apologising.

12 hours ago, bickster said:

Also, Corbyn will also find that under a large Taxi Co-Op such as the aforementioned Glasgow Taxi's Trade Union membership dramatically decreases. The trade union has no purpose

Roles a union could play in a co-op might include representation in grievance and discipline, involvement in pay grading and defining roles.  For taxis, I suppose the issue is whether the co-op is an employer or just a booking platform for independent contractors.  If it's the latter, then I agree a union won't be much use for them.

[bickster]

41 minutes ago, peterms said:

The same issue arises for a lone individual, a co-op, and a private company - what do you do with the jobs you don't fancy?  You can turn them down, charge a premium reflecting what you think it's worth and see if anyone is desperate enough to pay it, or else make clear that you don't offer that service at all.  Private companies turn down jobs frequently.  In the case of taxi firms, if a dominant one routinely turns down customers then I suppose there's a market solution if someone else can offer a different service, or possibly a regulatory one if the licensing authority wants to ensure that the firm doesn't just cherry-pick in the way that private bus firms try to offer only the most profitable routes.  Maybe those solutions don't work - what do you do if all the pubs and restaurants in a small town are shit, or (today's news) no bank wants to run a branch there?  It's an issue of market failure to me, not something especially associated with one type of management.

That's a management issue, isn't it?  Any organisation has to find a balance between the producer interest and the consumer interest, and manage its affairs accordingly.  John Lewis manages to get the toilets cleaned, though probably most of the "partners" aren't too keen on that job.  If organisations get the balance too wrong in either direction, there are problems.  In the case of a taxi co-op, surely a well-run one would reach agreement between members that if they turn down jobs for poor reasons, or too often, or at times when replacements can't be found, then some kind of action will be taken, up to and including dismissal.  If they don't do that, then they are running a risk, and maybe a dominant market position and lack of competition will protect them, maybe it won't.  Looking at Ryanair, who are also in the "taxi" business (sorry), their cock-up a few months back was interesting because they seemed to assume first that customers would continue to use them because of price and could be treated with the customary arrogance, but then they seemed to become uncertain and started rowing back, even apologising.

Roles a union could play in a co-op might include representation in grievance and discipline, involvement in pay grading and defining roles.  For taxis, I suppose the issue is whether the co-op is an employer or just a booking platform for independent contractors.  If it's the latter, then I agree a union won't be much use for them.

Para 1. The law actually prevents this to a degree. HC driver not allowed to refuse a fare on a rank without due cause. On the PH side, its contractual law that prevents it. Once a booking has been accepted there is a contract between passenger and booking platform. Driver then contractually obliged to continue with booking once it has been accepted by him. There are way too many rules and regulations for the circumstances you mention to occur

Para 2 It may well be a management issue in a normal industry, it's not a normal industry. John Lewis contract out toilet cleaning  The co-op probably do have those rules but if one driver is dismissed 5,10. 20 of his mates might leave too, big hole in finance company... It's not an industry that conforms to those traditional economic rules. ASsk most people who the customer is in the Taxi Industry and they'll say the paying public, that isn't the case, they are the customers of the drivers, the drivers are the customers of the booking platform. The forces at play in the industry just don't conform

Para 3 - you're missing my point... in a co-op, no one joins the union, they only join because they talk to the council over tariffs, they really wouldn't join, it's not whether there's a role for them or not, they'd just have very few members

[darrenm]

The only pollster who got ge2017 right says

This ought to get a few Tories twitching

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, darrenm said:

The only pollster who got ge2017 right says

This ought to get a few Tories twitching

It's keeping May in a job.