Chindie Posted February 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, ermie123 said: I find it weird that Hitler (fascism) is demonised yet Stalin (communism/socialism) is not. I think history nails it as Hitler was in championship in comparison to Stalin, Lennin and Mao. Funny as well that none of the communists/socialists spend their holidays in North Korea or Cuba. Setting aside the obvious rod and line... A couple of things. Hitler's notoriety comes from our involvement with him. He was the 'baddie' in the biggest event of the last century and we were directly opposed to him. It's not a shock his evil sticks more in the mind than Stalin, who was on our side at the time and then wasn't so directly and immediately our problem. And anyone that knows anything of 20th Century world history is quite aware of Stalin's death toll. He's viewed as a butcher. Quite a few people holiday in Cuba. And increasing numbers go to North Korea. I'm not really sure what point you're making or why it's in a thread about Labour. Who are about as far from Stalin's Soviet philosophy as they can get before switching 'wings'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 17 minutes ago, ermie123 said: I find it weird that Hitler (fascism) is demonised yet Stalin (communism/socialism) is not. I think history nails it as Hitler was in championship in comparison to Stalin, Lennin and Mao. Funny as well that none of the communists/socialists spend their holidays in North Korea or Cuba. Stalin is very much demonised. As are the others you mention. How does history nail? It's not weird at all if you're referring to the posters on here as the socialists considering North Korea doesn't really encourage western tourism to put it mildly or that Cuba has been used as a pawn in a political game for the last 50 years leaving it's economy in tatters. I know people who have visited Cuba over the years and they all say it is among other things the most musical place they have ever visited. It comes across as you're comparing the numbers of people they are alleged to have been responsible for the deaths of. Which apart from the near impossibility of having any accurate figures to work off seems to be a strange way to compare 4 despotic authoritarian leaders with differences in political ideology. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I think I'm the most right wing in the thread so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: I think I'm the most right wing in the thread so far Don't worry just assume that others are demonstrating their personal reaction formation: "In psychoanalytic theory, reaction formation (German: Reaktionsbildung) is a defensive process (defense mechanism) in which emotions and impulses which are anxiety-producing or perceived to be unacceptable are mastered by exaggeration (hypertrophy) of the directly opposing tendency." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I'm starting to think ermie is @useless (we miss you) but without the comedic genius bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermie123 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, snowychap said: What on earth are you going on about? Who knows, i'm stuck on how many genders there are in humanity as according to some in New York there are 63 so far (and counting). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermie123 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 11 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I'm starting to think ermie is @useless (we miss you) but without the comedic genius bit Probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermie123 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 After all i identify as being a dog, but people kick off when i poo on their grass! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ermie123 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Setting aside the obvious rod and line... A couple of things. Hitler's notoriety comes from our involvement with him. He was the 'baddie' in the biggest event of the last century and we were directly opposed to him. It's not a shock his evil sticks more in the mind than Stalin, who was on our side at the time and then wasn't so directly and immediately our problem. And anyone that knows anything of 20th Century world history is quite aware of Stalin's death toll. He's viewed as a butcher. Quite a few people holiday in Cuba. And increasing numbers go to North Korea. I'm not really sure what point you're making or why it's in a thread about Labour. Who are about as far from Stalin's Soviet philosophy as they can get before switching 'wings'. On the imediately our problem theme didn't they attack Poland at the same time so we should have declared war on them as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Keyblade said: I think I'm the most right wing in the thread so far If I could be bothered to post it, I'm more right than you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2017 46 minutes ago, ermie123 said: On the imediately our problem theme didn't they attack Poland at the same time so we should have declared war on them as well? This has nothing to do with Labour. We should have declared war but made our excuses and didn't. Now, Corbyn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 52 minutes ago, ermie123 said: Who knows, i'm stuck on how many genders there are in humanity as according to some in New York there are 63 so far (and counting). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Keyblade said: I think I'm the most right wing in the thread so far im about 3 squares right and 2 squares up from you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 So, if we're working off the interpretations of communism being at the opposite end of the single axis scale to right wing extremism (Note not Fascism) then again we are having to accept the limitations of the terminology. The political ideology of 'pure' communism is different to the examples used throughout human history in practicality, neither Russia nor China have ever run a system based on 'pure' communist ideology. Communism is little more than a term for egalitarianism, by the time Marx and Engels come along it is the move away from egalitarianism in their thinking that distinguishes Marxism from the theoretical ideology that is 'pure' communism. Lenin adapts Marxist thinking around a democratic centralism around the time of the Bolshevik Revolution (Founded as the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party) and the birth of the Soviet Union. By Stalin's time he coined the term Marxist-Leninism which was his recognised sociopolitical and economic ideology. Stalinism is more about Stalin's own path in power than any ideology. Death Squads, Show Trials, Purges, Oppressing Dissent and so on. There is an argument from Marxists that says the USSR was more of a State Capitalist system rather than a Communist one due to the 'ownership' of the state. See also variations on the Communist theme - Trotskyism, Left or Christian or Anarchic or Council Communism, Marxist Liberalism and so on. Marxist - Leninist - Maoism (or Maoism for short) basically applies the same Marxist-Leninist theory around an agrarian society rather than an industrial one. Fascism however does not necessarily follow a predesigned ideology moreover that it is based heavily around Nationalism. In fact many of the European fascists including the one you mentioned borrowed heavily from Marxist theory while espousing 'a new, third way'. And whilst the comparisons with Communism don't hold up with the European Fascists acceptance towards private ownership, private profits, class and capitalism not to mention the superior race, the overall state ownership model does. The governance by the state on individual human rights including using secret police, attempting to control religeon, use of propaganda, the dictatorial one party model, the devotion to ideology and state, the abolition of unions and workers rights are all common traits between the 4 ex leaders you mention and the individual mix of ideologies and political theories in play. The point being that you cannot use Hitler (Fascism) vs Stalin (Communism) and expect to connect them together. The brackets are not clarifying or supplanting useful information anymore than Bobby Charlton (England) vs George Best (N. Ireland) is. Analogy wise - choosing which piece of excrement is 'better' or 'worse' than the other is surely a pretty futile exercise. Unless you're really into skat I suppose. To do so based on some death toll figures from who knows where is truly farcical. You'd need an axis for time served in office for one to work out their deathsperday ratio and what about assists? Or is it extra weighting towards Stalin for going toe-to-toe with Hitler and 'winning'? Unfortunately I think the complex nature of political ideology in oppressive dictatorships is a bit tricky to boil down to a championship style league table. Or do 2,3 or even 4 wrongs now make a right? As for Poland @ermie123 again it just over simplifies the situation. Stick the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact / European Appeasement / The Winter War / Munich Agreement / Polish Guarantee on your reading list. And then spare a moment to consider Chamberlain's reluctance to fight two wars at the same time. As for on topic it does have Chairman Mao in the title. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 9 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: So, if we're working off the interpretations of communism being at the opposite end of the single axis scale to right wing extremism It seems to work better if you use a broken circle and communism and fascism are opposite each other at the two ends and are in effect only slightly different from each other. A dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship. The salient feature of what we generally call fascism rather than communism is Roman Catholicism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 13 hours ago, ermie123 said: Who knows, i'm stuck on how many genders there are in humanity as according to some in New York there are 63 so far (and counting). What does this have to do with Stalin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said: It seems to work better if you use a broken circle and communism and fascism are opposite each other at the two ends and are in effect only slightly different from each other. A dictatorship of the proletariat is still a dictatorship. The salient feature of what we generally call fascism rather than communism is Roman Catholicism. aka horseshoe theory 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 I see the line as more of a circle, with far left and far right being very close to each other in certain areas. Anyway, how does everyone interpret these lyrics? An ironic snipe at neoliberalism? There's something wrong somewhere here So through unclean streets I made my way With holes in my shoes and my children asleep at my feet I paid my way In every town on the way The people looked grey the buildings looked healthy But one day I met a man With money to spare He said he would tell me how it is The State he began Has been propping up people too long For far too long We all got lazy and couldn't be bothered To make our way through the world But we are all bourgeois now Once there was class war But not any longer Because baby we are all bourgeois now So go out and make your way in the world We're free to choose We're all free to choose We're all free to choose We're free to choose In Booming Britain we all work together To raise ourselves in the world Each of us knows someone Who has done well for themselves So well for themselves "Thank you," I said as I left I'll be on my way, I see how it is We are all bourgeois now And somehow I'll raise myself through the world I'm free to choose We're all free to choose We're all free to choose I'm free to choose We're all bourgeois now We're all bourgeois now We're bourgeois now 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 Has there ever been a communist or deeply socialist government that hasn't had to rule using brutality? I always assume that humans are largely greedy by nature and therefore it's hard to make sure everyone sticks to the principles of socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 4 hours ago, sharkyvilla said: Has there ever been a communist or deeply socialist government that hasn't had to rule using brutality? I always assume that humans are largely greedy by nature and therefore it's hard to make sure everyone sticks to the principles of socialism. Sweden , the U.K. In 1945 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts