The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[HanoiVillan]

27 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Thing with economies is you can't really predict ... I was on this forum when Brown was talked about as the best chancellor this country had ever had  .... you'd probably be hard pushed to find any of those people repeating that claim now , even if they could escape their straight jackets to type

 

the global  financial crises obviously wasn't his fault but that's sort of the point ... whose to say what unforeseen events will happen in the coming years ... hypothetically  maybe the EU comes crashing down ....Mark could be right and we are no better off but had we stayed maybe we could have been a whole lot worse .... will Mark then be saying phew thank God we left ?

short term  our currency has been over valued for a while , we've got an adjustment realitivly scot free... the Eurozone is in a debt deflation cycle and  trying to drive down exchange rates to break out of the liquidity trap... the man on the street may care more that their pint on holiday in Spain is costing more but short term it's boosting our economy ... long term , dunno that's way above my pay grade as they say 

I'm sure many are relishing being able to come back in five years time and say i told  you so ... but like it wasn't Browns fault , maybe it might not be Brexits fault either , unless you subscribe to the view that Brexit emboldened Trump supporters etc 

 

I certainly wouldn't say Brown was the best chancellor this country has ever had, but certainly underrated these days. If that makes me mad you'd better book me a padded room 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Surely the issue is that there aren't enough left leaning people. It's not that there needs to be a resurgence of those on the left, that's already happened under Corbin, what there needs to be is an increase in left leaning voters.

I've skimmed a bit, so apologies, but that extract comes across as, um, massively wrong to me. Like, back to front. Sorry if I've missed something, but politicians are supposed to represent the people, not the other way round, if that makes sense?

[TrentVilla]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

I've skimmed a bit, so apologies, but that extract comes across as, um, massively wrong to me. Like, back to front. Sorry if I've missed something, but politicians are supposed to represent the people, not the other way round, if that makes sense?

I'm not sure if it's due to skim reading, cross wires or me not explaining myself clearly but I don't think I've made the point you are summarising above.

I'm not suggesting that the people should represent the politicians, truth be told I'm not even sure what that would mean.

My point was that when it comes to a General Election Corbyn simply doesn't represent enough people to stand a chance of election. A traditional Labour Party likewise.

For Labour to stand any hope of election they need rid of Corbyn and they need to move back to a more centre left position, in my view.

I don't think Corbyn's Labour Party appeals to enough voters. For him to succeed there would need to be a shift to the left within non traditional Labour voters, I don't see that happening. 

As someone who has always voted Labour, I won't vote for a Corbyn Government. I'm sure plenty feel the same.

When I said there needs to be an increase in left leaning voters I meant that is what would be required for what Mark posted to materialise. I wasn't advocating it, I was actually trying and seemingly failing to say I thought it was unrealistic.

[markavfc40]

38 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

 

When I said there needs to be an increase in left leaning voters I meant that is what would be required for what Mark posted to materialise. I wasn't advocating it, I was actually trying and seemingly failing to say I thought it was unrealistic.

 

I think it is possibly me that has been misunderstood here. When I say there will be a resurgence of those with a left leaning persuasion I didn't mean far left I simply mean left of centre.

I think just as people don't want a far left Government they don't want a far right one either. You see someone with openly far right views in Trump getting elected and it was like a wake up call to many both in the US and over here. Unfortunately too late in America as apathy ruled for many and they didn't wake up soon enough as had they have done I don't think he would have been elected. When I say had they have woken up sooner that includes the democrats in not putting up a better candidate to oppose him.

The response over here again suggests to me it could well be the trigger to say enough is enough and I think a majority now do fear we are shifting too far to the right.

What is lacking in all this of course is a party to get behind but if Labour could get its house in order soon there is a massive opportunity to be had and I think it is realistic that a left of centre Labour Party would be embraced and elected. That certainly won't happen with Corbyn as leader though.

Edited February 10, 2017 by markavfc40

[markavfc40]

3 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

Have you got the winning lottery numbers for the next few years whilst you are at it ? 

Just giving my opinion mate. I am not usually asked for winning lottery numbers off the back it though so can't help you there.

[ermie123]

I would love someone to explain to me what exactly is the difference between a left government and a right government and also a far left and far right government is.  Also whats the difference to a extreme far left and extreme far right government.  All i seem to know is left is communism and right is fascism and as history tells us communism killed way more than fascism so it appears that the only thing any of them are good at is killing people. 

[VILLAMARV]

10 minutes ago, ermie123 said:

I would love someone to explain to me what exactly is the difference between a left government and a right government and also a far left and far right government is.  Also whats the difference to a extreme far left and extreme far right government.  All i seem to know is left is communism and right is fascism and as history tells us communism killed way more than fascism so it appears that the only thing any of them are good at is killing people. 

The thing is as @OutByEaster? has been pointing out in another thread, the simplistic terms of left and right are really not applicable to modern day politics.

On 2/8/2017 at 07:34, OutByEaster? said:

That's brilliant, and shows just how much Citizens United changed the world we live in. I think it also says something about how outmoded the labels we use ti describe politics are - left, right, liberal, fascist, these things aren't effective in describing a world that's actually a battleground between profit and humanity.

The terms "Left" and "Right" originated out of the French Revolution, and at that time were applicable to where you sat in their Assembly. Pro monarchy on the right, revolutionaries on the left. In the UK we picked it up between World Wars in the 1930's and I would say from a British perspective up until the 1970's they were pretty clearly defined in the political arena. Conservative voters were right, Labour voters were left and moderate Liberals in the middle. Since then we have seen a period of sinistrisme where everything is being pulled towards the centre ground. Some would argue that since the birth of 'New' Labour we've lurched, like the US, to being a centre-right country. 

Klaus von Beyme suggested 9 categories described most European political parties but found rural and ethnic parties hard to place on a single axis scale. The other 7 however went in this order from (extreme) left to (extreme) right:

LEFT ---communist---socialist---green---liberal---christian democratic---consevative---right wing extremist--RIGHT

So to go back to your original question your perception of left and right (left=communism/right=fascism) is comparing the two extremes. Hence you reach the conclusion that all extremism is good for is killing people. Something most people would probably agree with you on.

What those terms specifically refer to is hard to pin down with any accuracy but there are common defining factors along a sliding scale for example Anarchy - Monarchy, Large state - Small state. Collectivism - Individualism.

Political scientists would say these days that the political spectrum along one axis just doesn't go far enough. And attempts have been made to add axes or dimensions. You could look up the 'Nolan Chart' when an American turned it into a box by adding a 'freedom' dimension. This has been extrapolated upon by the Russian 'Vosem Chart' with 3 axes of Corporate and Individual economics and civil liberty. The political compass was the one made famous by facebook a few years back. Which draws quite a bit from the 'Pournelle Chart'. They (political compass) have UK politics looking like this (from 2015):

These days the terms have been bastardised through political language and common discourse as well as the political shift of parties like Labour in the UK and leads people like @Keyblade to say this in the US bolitics thread.

On 2/8/2017 at 09:54, Keyblade said:

The way they use the term leftist is funny, almost like a pejorative

Not that it's different over here at times, *bloody hippies* *generation snowflake* *bleeding heart liberals* etc etc etc

But then some might argue that pitting the majority against each other is quite handy for the ruling classes. Of course others would obviously call you a fool and a communist to think that.

[VILLAMARV]

However it's hard to rant over this without using one of my favourite memes

[VILLAMARV]

Also heres a wiki page on Syncretic Politics which has many links to the 'sub-genre's' on the right hand side of that page. (hard left - far right etc)

Wikipedia

 

[VILLAMARV]

And the slightly longer version of John Cleese vs Extremism

 

[tonyh29]

15 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

 If that makes me mad you'd better book me a padded room 

I just assumed you already lived in one ... seeking an upgrade or did you escape

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

The political compass was the one made famous by facebook a few years back

I'm slightly Right of Ghandi

I think last time I did this I was slightly closer to the blue area maybe the questions have changed or my views have ?

[VILLAMARV]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I'm slightly Right of Ghandi

I think last time I did this I was slightly closer to the blue area maybe the questions have changed or my views have ?

I think the questions have changed somewhat. I hope you will now allign yourself with the Greens and Plaid Cymru accordingly

[chrisp65]

you'll just have to take my word for it that I answered as honestly as I could and didn't just go through the questions 'strongly' agreeing or disagreeing

I've done the form a few times, it's usually there or there about. For the record, I've voted Plaid a few times as they've been the best fit.

I'm probably just a virtue signalling snowflake remoaner poof.

I think that location on the chart basically says, I'm a bit of a communist, but you do what you like.

[ermie123]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

The thing is as @OutByEaster? has been pointing out in another thread, the simplistic terms of left and right are really not applicable to modern day politics.

The terms "Left" and "Right" originated out of the French Revolution, and at that time were applicable to where you sat in their Assembly. Pro monarchy on the right, revolutionaries on the left. In the UK we picked it up between World Wars in the 1930's and I would say from a British perspective up until the 1970's they were pretty clearly defined in the political arena. Conservative voters were right, Labour voters were left and moderate Liberals in the middle. Since then we have seen a period of sinistrisme where everything is being pulled towards the centre ground. Some would argue that since the birth of 'New' Labour we've lurched, like the US, to being a centre-right country. 

Klaus von Beyme suggested 9 categories described most European political parties but found rural and ethnic parties hard to place on a single axis scale. The other 7 however went in this order from (extreme) left to (extreme) right:

LEFT ---communist---socialist---green---liberal---christian democratic---consevative---right wing extremist--RIGHT

So to go back to your original question your perception of left and right (left=communism/right=fascism) is comparing the two extremes. Hence you reach the conclusion that all extremism is good for is killing people. Something most people would probably agree with you on.

What those terms specifically refer to is hard to pin down with any accuracy but there are common defining factors along a sliding scale for example Anarchy - Monarchy, Large state - Small state. Collectivism - Individualism.

Political scientists would say these days that the political spectrum along one axis just doesn't go far enough. And attempts have been made to add axes or dimensions. You could look up the 'Nolan Chart' when an American turned it into a box by adding a 'freedom' dimension. This has been extrapolated upon by the Russian 'Vosem Chart' with 3 axes of Corporate and Individual economics and civil liberty. The political compass was the one made famous by facebook a few years back. Which draws quite a bit from the 'Pournelle Chart'. They (political compass) have UK politics looking like this (from 2015):

These days the terms have been bastardised through political language and common discourse as well as the political shift of parties like Labour in the UK and leads people like @Keyblade to say this in the US bolitics thread.

Not that it's different over here at times, *bloody hippies* *generation snowflake* *bleeding heart liberals* etc etc etc

But then some might argue that pitting the majority against each other is quite handy for the ruling classes. Of course others would obviously call you a fool and a communist to think that.

Thank you very very much for that.  And yes divide and conquer has always been good for the people in power as it distracts people from what is really going on in the world and of course owning most of the media is always a boost for them. 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said:

The thing is as @OutByEaster? has been pointing out in another thread, the simplistic terms of left and right are really not applicable to modern day politics.

The terms "Left" and "Right" originated out of the French Revolution, and at that time were applicable to where you sat in their Assembly. Pro monarchy on the right, revolutionaries on the left. In the UK we picked it up between World Wars in the 1930's and I would say from a British perspective up until the 1970's they were pretty clearly defined in the political arena. Conservative voters were right, Labour voters were left and moderate Liberals in the middle. Since then we have seen a period of sinistrisme where everything is being pulled towards the centre ground. Some would argue that since the birth of 'New' Labour we've lurched, like the US, to being a centre-right country. 

Klaus von Beyme suggested 9 categories described most European political parties but found rural and ethnic parties hard to place on a single axis scale. The other 7 however went in this order from (extreme) left to (extreme) right:

LEFT ---communist---socialist---green---liberal---christian democratic---consevative---right wing extremist--RIGHT

So to go back to your original question your perception of left and right (left=communism/right=fascism) is comparing the two extremes. Hence you reach the conclusion that all extremism is good for is killing people. Something most people would probably agree with you on.

What those terms specifically refer to is hard to pin down with any accuracy but there are common defining factors along a sliding scale for example Anarchy - Monarchy, Large state - Small state. Collectivism - Individualism.

Political scientists would say these days that the political spectrum along one axis just doesn't go far enough. And attempts have been made to add axes or dimensions. You could look up the 'Nolan Chart' when an American turned it into a box by adding a 'freedom' dimension. This has been extrapolated upon by the Russian 'Vosem Chart' with 3 axes of Corporate and Individual economics and civil liberty. The political compass was the one made famous by facebook a few years back. Which draws quite a bit from the 'Pournelle Chart'. They (political compass) have UK politics looking like this (from 2015):

These days the terms have been bastardised through political language and common discourse as well as the political shift of parties like Labour in the UK and leads people like @Keyblade to say this in the US bolitics thread.

Not that it's different over here at times, *bloody hippies* *generation snowflake* *bleeding heart liberals* etc etc etc

But then some might argue that pitting the majority against each other is quite handy for the ruling classes. Of course others would obviously call you a fool and a communist to think that.

I did the test and I get almost exactly where the Green party is. It's that really one of only a few non authoritarian parties in the UK? I love how UKIP it's in the exact same spot as Hitler

[tonyh29]

15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

you'll just have to take my word for it that I answered as honestly as I could and didn't just go through the questions 'strongly' agreeing or disagreeing

I've done the form a few times, it's usually there or there about. For the record, I've voted Plaid a few times as they've been the best fit.

I'm probably just a virtue signalling snowflake remoaner poof.

I think that location on the chart basically says, I'm a bit of a communist, but you do what you like.

I did have a witty remark but then realised communist jokes are not funny , unless everyone gets them

[markavfc40]

I got this which seems about where I thought I would be.

 

[PompeyVillan]

47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

you'll just have to take my word for it that I answered as honestly as I could and didn't just go through the questions 'strongly' agreeing or disagreeing

I've done the form a few times, it's usually there or there about. For the record, I've voted Plaid a few times as they've been the best fit.

I'm probably just a virtue signalling snowflake remoaner poof.

I think that location on the chart basically says, I'm a bit of a communist, but you do what you like.

You Nazi.

[darrenm]

answered honestly