blandy Posted January 29, 2017 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2017 12 minutes ago, snowychap said: I don't know why you're posting that in response to my post. I have said in my posts that there is a whole spectrum of possibilities. It isn't just shun then or suck them off. Continuing the conversation, snowy. You have, yes. No offence intended, I was just brain emptying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 can't let this thread slip to page 2 on Corbyns last day , so bump Did I read it correctly that , Corbyn is using the whips to make the part vote with the government , and one of the very whips whose job it is to make this happen is voting against it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) Is there much precedent for the opposition being whipped (especially 3 lines) to vote in line with the government? Edited February 1, 2017 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) I thought Corbyn was just being crafty. As leader, he simultaneously upholds the 'will of the people' but then allows his MPs who hold seats which voted Remain, to claim they are doing the same, by having a weakly enforced whip. In theory, Labour voters should be happy and he can claim that he is being completely democratic to all concerned. Edited February 1, 2017 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) If it was intended to be a weakly enforced whip, surely it wouldn't be 3 lines? He's tried to force their hand, and it's risking him looking even weaker than he did before. He can't even keep his whips in line. He's party leader in name only. Edited February 1, 2017 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 22 minutes ago, Davkaus said: If it was intended to be a weakly enforced whip, surely it wouldn't be 3 lines? He's tried to force their hand, and it's risking him looking even weaker than he did before. He can't even keep his whips in line. He's party leader in name only. What would you have preferred him to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2017 13 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: What would you have preferred him to do? do what the opposition is supposed to do and oppose the Gov't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I'm fed up of reading/hearing about the 'will of the people', it's the 'will' of approximately 51% of people who voted. It's disingenuous to call this the 'will of the people' when such a huge amount of voters didn't want it in the first place. That term is just a Daily Mail-esque device to elicit a sense of 'treason' for those politicians who will vote against Article 50. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: do what the opposition is supposed to do and oppose the Gov't. Can't really expect it when Corbyn privately agreed with Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I'm fed up of reading/hearing about the 'will of the people', it's the 'will' of approximately 51% of people who voted. It's disingenuous to call this the 'will of the people' when such a huge amount of voters didn't want it in the first place. That term is just a Daily Mail-esque device to elicit a sense of 'treason' for those politicians who will vote against Article 50. Agreed. But what term would you use instead? Edited February 1, 2017 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Read somewhere he's up for exit if they can get amendments? No amendments, they vote to stay in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 36 minutes ago, blandy said: do what the opposition is supposed to do and oppose the Gov't. So go full remain? But haven't you previously said he should appeal to Labour's traditional voter base? Which would be leave in the northern Labour towns? Haven't you previously said he should be pragmatic, leave some of his less popular policies behind and do what's necessary to get this Tory government out? So that would be to be seen to side with democracy and respect the referendum? Just so we're clear, you want him to go remain even though it would be political suicide for Labour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said: What would you have preferred him to do? What I'd like him to do is besides the point, really, but I'd have preferred him to allow his MPs to vote according to their own judgement. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that he can "claim that he is being completely democratic to all concerned" when he's attempting to force his MPs to not only vote against their own judgement, but in many cases, to vote against the "will of the British people" in their own constituency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted February 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said: Agreed. But what term would you use instead? The Narrow Majority. The Marginal Advantage-Holders. The 52%, An Unkown Proportion Of Whom Were Deceived Into Voting For Something They Now Regret. That last one is a bit of a mouthful, granted, but just something a bit more accurate, and a bit less dramatic, than "The Will Of The People" would be lovely. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 35 minutes ago, Davkaus said: What I'd like him to do is besides the point, really, but I'd have preferred him to allow his MPs to vote according to their own judgement. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment that he can "claim that he is being completely democratic to all concerned" when he's attempting to force his MPs to not only vote against their own judgement, but in many cases, to vote against the "will of the British people" in their own constituency. Your preferred option would seem the simplest, my speculation was inspired by me trying to guess the advantages of his actual choice. It could have been him trying to have it both ways or just him trying to appease conflicting demands. The latter seems more likely than the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted February 1, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: So go full remain? But haven't you previously said he should appeal to Labour's traditional voter base? Which would be leave in the northern Labour towns? Haven't you previously said he should be pragmatic, leave some of his less popular policies behind and do what's necessary to get this Tory government out? So that would be to be seen to side with democracy and respect the referendum? Just so we're clear, you want him to go remain even though it would be political suicide for Labour? That's not quite what I've said, no. But to answer the question, I want him to be smart. May and Fox and them have said we're gonna do Brexit, we're going to leave the single market, we're going to leave the Atomic thingummy and so on. this is before they've even started negotiating with yurp. They've already conceded, or said they've conceded, the single market membership. Despite it being the opposite of their manifesto. Despite May not having any mandate at all do that. And Corbyn the massive incompetent numpty is compelling his MPs to vote with the Government to do that. He's stark raving bonkers. Many more Labour voters voted remain than voted leave. 66% apparently, voted remain. So in what way is compelling his MPs to support the Tories in charging towards Brexit either principled or sensible or honest? Labour's MPs, Labour's cabinet, most labour voters and members all think remain is the wiser course of action. Corbyn says he's not like other politicians, he's a man of principle, he goes with what he believes. Yeah, right Jezza, course you do. Now, even if you take the view that the referendum means we have to leave, as leader of the oppo, that does not mean you give the tories a free ride to do it their way. How about saying, for example "We recognise the result of the ref. was to leave, however, before my party can support the Gov't in achieving that aim, we need to be assured that they will do the following things Protect our place in the single market/protect workers rights/protect envirnomental rules/ give 350 million a week to the NHS/remain in the atomic wossname/ etc. and so forth... Instead of which he's forcing his MPS to wave the tories through the leave gate with no influence on their course of action. what a monumnetal bell end, and useless, deceptive lying, f'tard he is. This is the future of everyone he's dicking about helping the tories destroy. It's not about supporting remain against a referendum vote to leave, it's about not being a **** numpty and incompetently allowing the tory zealots to cause the hardest of Brexits. 26 minutes ago, darrenm said: do what's necessary to get this Tory government out? that bit, yes. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 13 minutes ago, blandy said: That's not what I've said, no. But to answer the question, I want him to be smart. May and Fox and them have said we're gonna do Brexit, we're going to leave the single market, we're going to leave the Atomic thingummy and so on. this is before they've ven started negotiating with yurp. They've alreay conceded or said they've conceded the single market membership. Despite it being the opposite of their manifesto. Despite May not having any mandate at all do that. And Corbyn the massive incompetent numpty is compelling his MPs to vote with the Government to do that. He's stark raving bonkers. Many more Labour voters voted remain than voted leave. 66% apparently, voted remain. So in what way is compelling his MPs to support the Tories in charging towards Brexit either principled or sensible or honest? Labour's MPs, Labour's cabinet, most labour voters and members all think remain is the wiser course of action. COrbyn says he's not like e=other politicians, he's a man of principle, he goes with what he believes. Yeah, right Jezza, course you do. Now, even if you take the view that the referendum means we have to leave, as leader of the oppo, that does not mean you give the tories a free ride to do it their way. How about saying, for example "We recognise the result of the ref. was to leave, howver, before my party can support the Gov't in achieving that aim, we need to be assured that they will do the following things Protect our place in the single market/protect workers rights/protect envirnomental rules/ give 350 million a week to the NHS/remain in the atomic wossname/ etc. and so forth... Instead of which he's forcing his MPS to wave the tories through the leave gate with no influence on their course of action. what a monumnetal bell end, and useless, deceptive lying, f'tard he is. This is the future of everyone he's dicking about helping the tories destroy. It's not about supporting remain against a referendum vote to leave, it's about not being a **** numpty and incompetently allowing the tory zealots to cause the hardest of Brexits. Wow. I could sense your anger and passion in this post Pete. I think we have found our new leader of the opposition. You just won my vote mate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 minute ago, markavfc40 said: Wow. I could sense your anger and passion in this post Pete. I think we have found our new leader of the opposition. You just won my vote mate. Very kind, and you're right it does make me angry, but christ, no! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 2 hours ago, darrenm said: So go full remain? But haven't you previously said he should appeal to Labour's traditional voter base? Which would be leave in the northern Labour towns? Haven't you previously said he should be pragmatic, leave some of his less popular policies behind and do what's necessary to get this Tory government out? So that would be to be seen to side with democracy and respect the referendum? Just so we're clear, you want him to go remain even though it would be political suicide for Labour? All of these are fair questions, but as I've said before in this thread, Labour are absolutely screwed no matter what they do (especially on this issue, but increasingly on other issues as well). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Is it right the man of principle dedicated most of his QT today slamming Trump and May for meeting him etc etc and then when asked if he will be attending the state dinner for Trumps visit said a decision would be made closer to the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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