The Tim Sherwood Thread

[foreveryoung]

I don't now if it is because it is a Sunday and Liverpool are currently on the box but I was just thinking back to our semi final win against Liverpool. It was 24 weeks today. I thought we were excellent that day. The best performance from us for a long time. Definitely our peak under Sherwood and arguably our biggest peak since the days of O'Neill. That day I thought we may have something good in Sherwood. Despite what has happened since I still think the performance we put in that day was quite remarkable given that just a few weeks earlier we were incomparable and were a shambles devoid of confidence and struggling to muster a decent chance let alone score a goal.

There is no denying it has been down hill since then though. I think there are many reasons for that and undeniably the biggest could very well be that the manager is simply not very good and out of his depth. I think it runs a little deeper than that though. That side that day contained 4 players we no longer have in Delph, Benteke, Vlaar and Cleverley. I think in Richards we have found a more than adequate replacement for Vlaar, I like the look of Gana and Veretout but I don't think they  are yet are on the level of Delph and Cleverley. That leaves Benteke and we haven't come anywhere near close to replacing him. I don't actually blame Sherwood for that though. Benteke was a 32 mill striker. He was worth that. Now you could argue we paid 7 mill for Benteke and we could have found another Benteke for that but players of that level come along once in a blue moon for that kind of money. If it was that easy then Liverpool wouldn't have bought Benteke, Everton wouldn't have bought Lukaku for 28 mill etc, etc.

It is why I don't think quoting that Sherwood has had 45 mill to spend quite tells the whole story. With that 45 mill he had to replace a 30 mill striker and a couple of midfielders worth upwards of 20 mill combined. All at the same time as trying to improve a squad even with those players was in other areas so poor that we finished 17th. Oh and in addition he has reduced the wage bill.

None of the above and the fact he also played a major part in saving us from relegation excuses the poor start we have had but unlike some seem to think I don't think it can all be disregarded either.  Sherwood did a good job initially and had a very tough task over the summer in trying to assemble a squad capable of at the very least staying in this division. Despite his bravado of stating we would never be in danger of relegation again I don't think he said that thinking he would subsequently then lose his four best players on top of an already big rebuilding job.

Sherwood may well be a dud. The longer this season goes on the more likely that seems. The problems at this club run way deeper than that though. Alan Shearer commented earlier that Sunderland have had problems for years and have had a big turnover in managers but nothing changes and that all them managers can't be poor it has to go deeper than that. The same applies here.

 

spot on!!!

Not spot on at all. You are as good as saying the recent results are down to losing Benteke, Delph and Cleverley. To be fair he had a full strength team against Arsenal in the cup and couldn't even compete. Something went on that day, it was a chance of silver wear and we didn't really turn up, this was the real start of the decline.

Southampton was also a game where you could see he had no ideas.. But look at the quality against Liverpool in the cup, I hear you say. Did you watch that game and see the way Rogers set that team up. It played right into our hands and even though I want to be positive on that win, Liverpool were woeful, ask any plop fan, they let us play that way.

As for a losing mentality, this is not something that is set in the club, this is bollocks, it comes from the manager to the squad. I have been on the end of this loser mentality in everyday employment. I mean McLeish and Lamberts final days are not really gonna lift a squad are they, an Sherwood thinks more about himself than the players. Get the right manager in and the squad will change, as did my previous employment, Koeman is a manager that lifts a team. You can see in his persona he can make a team play, irrelevant of the quality. He speaks disipline and thats how he gets the respect. the players enjoy playing for him. 

 

I

[sharkyvilla]

It's a tough call about whether the squad is better, but with the signings we made it's not actually that difficult for us to replicate the system that turned the season round last year.  Just put Gil where Zog was playing, choose a striker, Gana before his injury was doing a very good job replacing Delph, Richards slotted in well to Vlaar's role, and Amavi is an upgrade at left back, the rest is pretty much the same.  Benteke is impossible for us to replace but I'd have thought the collective performance could have negated that a bit, but all we have had is utter confusion and baffling decisions from the manager.  It's really not that difficult for us to turn our season round if we can replace Sherwood with someone who knows what they're doing.  Tim has just lost it, if he even had it all in the first place.

[dudevillaisnice]

Hmm I can believe Lambert, Mcleish and Sherwood are all bad managers but toed the "future is bright" line to get far too much time in the job. Won't wash now though. 

 

Lambert was a very promising manager when he arrived with a very good record behind him and what appeared to be a bright future ahead. He left a shadow of that manager and had totally lost his way and compromised on the bright attacking football philosophy he arrived with and left us playing the most negative football I have seen as a Villa fan and arguably seen from any club in the Premier League era.

I don't even think in hindsight that Lambert was a poor manager or a poor choice for us. He was simply worn down by the fact you have a club that expects to stay in the Premier League at the very least, and given the history and the fan base, rightly so, being run on a relative shoe string. Lambert had a net spend of over 20 mill in just under three years. This for a squad that had just avoided relegation and in that time had to dramatically reduce the wage bill.

Now we have a manager that this pre season has spent 45 mill, generated over 40 mill in sales, and with that money had to replace a 30 mill plus striker and two midfielders worth 20 mill + combined all at the same time as rebuilding a squad even with Vlaar, Delph, Cleverley and Benteke finished 17th. Oh and he has also reduced the wage bill.

Lambert and Sherwood may well be poor managers. The point is though I am not so sure an established manager like a Pulis, Allardyce or Moyes could have done that much better given the financial constraints. Assuming of course an established manager would even come.

This should be a fantastic job for any manager and the biggest opportunity out there aside from the top 4 or 5 clubs. Due to the mismanagement of those running the club and the lack of ambition above anything other than staying in the league it means this job is a poisoned chalice.

 

Respectfully disagree. I don't think Lambert is a good manager his level is the championship now he needs to rebuild his image. I think the 3 you mention would make us at the very least more competitive which would in turn improve us immediately. Certainly more organisation is needed on the pitch because at the moment it's a farce and embarrassment to the league what we are serving up.

[Marka Ragnos]

 

The press won't have much to do with it, and the local press will have nothing at all to do with it. 

As always, it boils down to a business and personal decision on the part of those in charge. Weighing against sacking him is:

a] he gets a huge, huge payout,

b] it's an admission of a mistake in choosing to employ him in the first place,

c] he might turn it around, and

d] it gives the impression that it's an 'unmanageable' club.

Weighing in favour of sacking him is

e] our historically low points tally at this stage of the season,

f] our situation in the league table, already adrift of safety by some margin, with nearly 25% of the season gone, 

g] the dire financial consequences for the Chairman if we go down, and

h] the increasing disillusionment of the fans (definitely the least important).

Arguments A-D have been stronger up to this point, but arguments E-G are rapidly gaining ground and may have overtaken A-D. You need to understand the importance of G, in particular. Lerner isn't interested in this football club. He's been formally trying to sell it for more than 18 months, and it was an open secret that it was informally up for sale for at least a couple of years before that. He wants to get rid of us as quickly as possible, but he isn't going to take a bath on our sale price, and relegation would instantly wipe about £100m off the value of the club.  

As for Tom Fox, it would probably be a little bit humiliating sacking Timmy, but he'll get over it. Firstly, the boss might force him. Secondly, he's the not the first CEO to ditch a manager after a few months in post. It wasn't much later than this that Palace sacked Warnock and Albion sacked Irvine last season, and they had only been in place since the summer. Eventually, the evidence becomes too persuasive to ignore. It will do in this case, simply because we're likely to lose all of our next 5 or 6 fixtures as well, while others move further ahead of us. The hope is that arguments E-G have already won the day, but make no mistake, they will win soon enough. 

As clever as you always are, Hanoi, and as much as I agree with much of this interesting analysis of the pros and cons, your underestimation of the local press's influence strikes me as less perceptive than your usual standard. Don't you remember how Paul Lambert was gone within hours of the Birmingham Mail's leader calling for his sack last February? And remember the Open Letter?  Randy Lerner doesn't like the spotlight.

Dear Randy,

We're glad you have finally acknowledged that Paul Lambert was no longer the right man for the job.

Hopefully your decision wasn’t too late, and it was in time to preserve Aston Villa’s Premier League future.

But for all the departed manager’s failings – and there were many – every single member of the Villa Park faithful knows the problems at the football club run much deeper than the 45-year-old Glaswegian.

The club might be Scot-free, but you’re far from Scot free, Randy.

There are big questions that need answering, and we’d love to sit round the table and talk about the things that really matter. ...

I and many others keep saying something very similar to this: the problems at the club run deeper than Sherwood. One summer of a net spend of £10m isn't going to fix years of rot. 

[Guest av1]

get rid of the muppet....go for clipperty Klop

lets not talk to much about Klopp, Liverpool own the copyright to deluded fans. 

[dudevillaisnice]

Fans are already voicing their discontent this early on which wasn't the case with Lambert. Sherwood won't last long even if the noise coming out of VP is one of backing him. Pressure via the local press and more fans voicing their opinion will see him pushed out hopefully. 

[cbr600rr]

if tim goes or stays it makes little difference ,the whole club is a mess

who is accountable for the scouting at villa? we all knew teki was off so if the scouts can come up with a champ player with a 1 in 2 record & the punt of 10m from a a french league, who every scouted teki did his job well but the rest i question

how the hell can clubs like southampton deliver year inn & out now, ?

[useless]

Tom Fox having some common sense will see him pushed out.

[imavillan]

agree with the delusion of red scouse but we have been buying cheap for far too long and look what we have.....there is an old addage, buy cheap buy twice

[Guest av1]

.

Sherwood may well be a dud. The longer this season goes on the more likely that seems. The problems at this club run way deeper than that though. Alan Shearer commented earlier that Sunderland have had problems for years and have had a big turnover in managers but nothing changes and that all them managers can't be poor it has to go deeper than that. The same applies here.

 

I would have to disagree with this last paragraph Mark. Sunderland's problems may be deep but a lot of that IS absolutely down to hiring poor Managers.

Dick

Poyet

Di Canio

O'Neil

All terrible appointments from a board that clearly didn't learn from its mistakes.

Sadly the same can also be said for our board, our last few managers have been turd. A Good manager will turn around a clubs fortunes, unfortunately we do not have a good Manager. IMO.

 

[Zatman]

We have a better squad overall now, but we have a huge benteke sized hole

this is the problem for me, we have lost all games by a single goal margin and a very good striker would probably have got us draws or a win in a few of them

Said before I dont care what he is made out of we need bring in Austin in January

[StanBalaban]

.

Sherwood may well be a dud. The longer this season goes on the more likely that seems. The problems at this club run way deeper than that though. Alan Shearer commented earlier that Sunderland have had problems for years and have had a big turnover in managers but nothing changes and that all them managers can't be poor it has to go deeper than that. The same applies here.

 

I would have to disagree with this last paragraph Mark. Sunderland's problems may be deep but a lot of that IS absolutely down to hiring poor Managers.

Dick

Poyet

Di Canio

O'Neil

All terrible appointments from a board that clearly didn't learn from its mistakes.

Sadly the same can also be said for our board, our last few managers have been turd. A Good manager will turn around a clubs fortunes, unfortunately we do not have a good Manager. IMO.

 

We must be mindful that getting rid of Sherwood needs to go hand-in-hand with bringing someone good, and suited to our needs, in. 

Are we capable of that?

I think Sherwood has assembled a decent squad FWIW. We need someone to get them to play. 

[StanBalaban]

I'm not going to shed any tears if Sherwood is sacked and I can more than understand the majority of fans calling for it. 

But at the same time I really don't see it changing anything. I think the biggest problem at our club is the looser mentality that goes through everyone, from the owners and the board, down to the fans (and I assume Doris the tea lady). We can bring in a different manager, even one with a winning mentality, but he'll soon be dragged down to our level.

I'm not saying the manager doesn't need changing, just that that alone won't solve our biggest problem.

I agree with the loser mentality holding the club back, but Sherwood's ace in the hole was playing to Benteke's strength last season.

Why then do we see so few crosses when we play Gestede up front? The loser mentality is one thing, but setting the team up poorly is more at fault.

Yep, like I said that doesn't mean Sherwood doesn't need changing as well. The team has got to be set up right as well but even with a better set up I think we'd still be losing to many games. 

Yeah you're probably right. The fact that most fans view the role as a poisoned chalice probably shows that losing is ingrained within the Villa community.

[sharkyvilla]

.

Sherwood may well be a dud. The longer this season goes on the more likely that seems. The problems at this club run way deeper than that though. Alan Shearer commented earlier that Sunderland have had problems for years and have had a big turnover in managers but nothing changes and that all them managers can't be poor it has to go deeper than that. The same applies here.

 

I would have to disagree with this last paragraph Mark. Sunderland's problems may be deep but a lot of that IS absolutely down to hiring poor Managers.

Dick

Poyet

Di Canio

O'Neil

All terrible appointments from a board that clearly didn't learn from its mistakes.

Sadly the same can also be said for our board, our last few managers have been turd. A Good manager will turn around a clubs fortunes, unfortunately we do not have a good Manager. IMO.

 

I'm not sure Poyet is a bad manager, it's just a very tough job.  Advocaat came in to keep them up and did and has a decent record over many years in a few countries.  The one common denominator between us and them is obviously O'Neil buying a load of shite that is hard to shift.  That's the most frustrating thing about our performance this season, as I think the bulk of the hard work is done and we can kick on with the squad we have now.

[Mark Albrighton]

Genuine question, those who want Sherwood gone, how many points would it take to from the next five daunting games (Chelsea, Swansea, Spurs, Man City and Everton) to give him a stay of execution? 

6 or 7 points? Or are you past that and of the opinion that we could get 5 decent results and you'd still want him gone?

[Zatman]

.

Sherwood may well be a dud. The longer this season goes on the more likely that seems. The problems at this club run way deeper than that though. Alan Shearer commented earlier that Sunderland have had problems for years and have had a big turnover in managers but nothing changes and that all them managers can't be poor it has to go deeper than that. The same applies here.

 

I would have to disagree with this last paragraph Mark. Sunderland's problems may be deep but a lot of that IS absolutely down to hiring poor Managers.

Dick

Poyet

Di Canio

O'Neil

All terrible appointments from a board that clearly didn't learn from its mistakes.

Sadly the same can also be said for our board, our last few managers have been turd. A Good manager will turn around a clubs fortunes, unfortunately we do not have a good Manager. IMO.

 

Sunderland have bigger problems than the managers. People like O'Shea and Cattermole have too much power while offering **** all. Can be no other reason why crap like Sebastian Larsson still play in top flight

[Guest av1]

Stanbalaban.

That's why I think now is the idea time to pull the trigger. We have the international break coming up, away to Chelsea after that so we could give ourselves 3 weeks + to find the right man.

Also I'd expect any competent board to have live working plan b anyway. The quicker the better IMO.

[BOF]

Say we get a result against a shit Chelsea. What then? Do we still pull the trigger on the basis that he probably doesn't have a clue or would it be a stay of execution?

[Zatman]

I dont believe in pulling the trigger unless a backup plan like Fox did with Sherwood. Is their anybody top class available and interested is the question that needs be asked

[dudevillaisnice]

I would pull the trigger before the Chelsea game personally