The ISIS threat to Europe

[mjmooney]

tl;dr

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 hour ago, Kingman said:

3 People, One serious. 

http://news.sky.com/story/1600631/tube-station-stabbing-a-terrorist-incident

Saw a video of it on live leak, lots of blood, very nasty scene. The perpetrator should never see the light of day again. 

[MakemineVanilla]

The only question which needs answering is whether dropping bombs on Syria will do any good.

History suggests it will not.

Germany was in a similar situation in 1944-45 as Syria are now, where the country was controlled by the Nazi death cult, and any demur of the civilian population was punished by ritual execution. People who showed a white flag or wanted to surrender were being hanged only hours before towns and villages were taken by the Allies, in April 1945.

The war did not end until Hitler was dead and the whole Nazi idea became impossible.

In Syria the ISIS fanatical, apocalyptic, vision of a manichean battle, is not embodied in a single individual who can be taken out with a bomb.

The idea that by bombing Syria some extremist Islamic group won't be able to find half a dozen men and women to kill people in Europe seems risible.

The idea that killing the civilian hostages of ISIS in Syria amounts to some kind of justice for those killed in Tunisia and Paris is idiotic and immoral.

It follows the same bloodthirsty logic of my parents' generation, who claimed that killing 40 thousand civilians in Hamburg and 25 thousand civilians in Dresden was a proportionate response to the 176 people killed in the Coventry blitz.

And we have to remember that the reason we are bombing rather than putting boots on the ground, is that the UK public and therefore the government, can stomach killing and mutilating Syrian civilians rather more comfortably than seeing the men and women of the British armed forces killed and mutilated.

And that is the extent of Cameron's and Benn's bravery, self-sacrifice and moral duty. 

[omariqy]

Re California shootings

Why are people confused about the California shooting story?

Eyewitness Sally Abdelmageed told CNN:
"[it was] three men, dressed in all black, military attire with vests on holding assault rifles... I couldn’t see a face, he had a black hat on and uh, from my view all I could see was a black hat and long sleeve shirt… black cargo pants with zippers on the sides, big puffy pockets, he had a huge assault rifle and extra ammo… I just saw three dressed exactly the same…. their skin tone looked white. They looked like they were athletic build. They appeared to be tall."

Security expert Michael McCann, former chief of security for the United Nations, told CBS2, "there are three people; they were well prepared; they were well equipped with the guns they were carrying; what they were wearing... they fled very quickly... I would think this was well organized and well planned beforehand." http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/12/02/san-bernardino-shooting-security-expert-michael-mccann/

Yet four hours later, the police shot: two brown-skinned Pakistanis, one according to the family lawyer David Chesley, was a small 90 pound woman with a young baby at home (http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/12/04/shooters-family-attorney-intv-cuomo-newday.cnn/video/playlists/san-bernardino-shooting/). They were California residents in a rented black SUV with Utah plates.

Farook attended the same holiday party last year. Since then, his coworkers threw a baby shower for him that included a registry. His brother, who lived nearby, was in the Navy and earned two medals for his service in "The Global War on Terrorism."  His brother said the couple wasn't radical.

At the party this time, Farook was sitting at a table chatting with a friend and co-worker before "disappearing" -- with his coat still on his chair.  They now say there was no argument.

When shot in the mysterious SUV, his tiny wife was wearing fitted shorts above her knees and no head covering. Family says she was always fully covered when she went out. I do not post pictures of dead bodies but it is available online.

They are portrayed as Bonnie and Clyde with a young baby. They had a fully stocked fridge with cooked food in Tupperware and pictures of their baby all over the house. Arranged flowers on tables and freshly watered house plants. Baby was left with her grandmother for Tashfeen to make a doctor appointment.  They had both been sick, assuming it was a stomach flu, but she needed a doctor.

That's why, at this point, it doesn't make sense. A young mom left her baby to go kill the same people who hosted her baby shower. She allegedly made a FB post pledging allegiance to ISIS on an alias page, at 11 am. The shooting started at 11 am. The post was removed. CNN states, "Malik made the post on an account with a different name, one U.S. official said. The officials did not explain how they knew Malik was behind the message."

Who were the victims? Just like the Paris attacks, they were very diverse. The NY Times writes, "He [shared] a cubicle with a friend, Isaac Amianos, a 60-year-old father of three from Eritrea... the two of them spoke Arabic together (Farook learning from Amianos)... The health inspectors came from all over the world... Nwadike was from Nigeria. Others hailed from Vietnam, Iran, Mexico and Colombia... Bullets struck Amianos, Thalasinos and others at Farook's table." (People he was just speaking with.) "A Muslim woman he prayed with.... Anies Kondoker, 42, was shot three times but survived." Amianos' family member, who also knew Farook, claimed the two had been friends and often left the office together.

Why would a traditional Pakistani Muslim American target these people, his friends, teachers, elders, a fellow Muslim? In California of all places, with all of its other potential targets?

About the "argument" with a co-worker: "Two weeks earlier, [Thalasinos, a Messianic Jew who made anti-Islam FB posts] and Farook argued over whether Islam was a violent religion. Recounting the conversation to a friend, Thalasinos said that Farook insisted his God was peaceful... Thalasinos liked discussing such topics. There was no indication that their interaction was anything out of the ordinary." http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-1205-christmas-party-20151205-story.html

From http://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2015/12/03/stories-of-those-who-died-in-the-mass-shooting-in-california:
"[Thalasinos' wife] said she believes her husband died a martyr because of his faith but he never indicated that Syed had radicalized. She said she did not believe her husband was individually targeted.  'They all got along really well. So it's shocking,' she said."

The shooters left before police arrived. Police and media then said they were searching for 3 white males. Then police shot these two, who fit no stated description, around 3 pm, after receiving a tip. The story changed from 3 male shooters to a married couple.

According to multiple reports during the car chase, officers fired 380 rounds, and the suspects shot 76 rifle rounds. By the end 1-2 officers had minor injuries. We read from the LA Times how the quiet housewife shot the 76 rifle rounds: "At one point as the couple attempted to elude police, Malik fired an assault rifle out the back window of their sport utility vehicle at pursuing officers."  (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-syed-farook-tashfeen-malik-shooters-san-bernardino-20151203-story.html)

The ammo, pipe bombs, etc., were found in their townhouse's garage. The garage was in a building separate from their home. A few minor items in the house. And a manhole in their closet ceiling.

And no one who knew them, including their many siblings and mother who lived with them and Navy brother who lived close by, saw anything strange.  Neighbor said they were happy. Smiled at her.  Farook would sometimes leave the garage door open as he worked on his car. Two of his friends said the same. He was always working on cars. Annie Larson, their back door neighbor last saw them hanging out on their patio on Sunday with their daughter, enjoying family time. (http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/12/03/neighbor-of-san-bernardino-killers-speaks-intv-erin.cnn)

Journalists entered their house, within 48 hrs, to rummage through their belongings. An unprecedented event. Any more evidence for or against this deceased couple, now unusable.

*I have had to update this so many times because of journalists changing their information. Misidentifications. Incorrect facts. Assumptions. Overly generalized statements.

Whether this whole scenario is genuine or skewed, I believe it's clear that the integrity of our informational media has plummeted. Far too often, facts are not checked in their rush to be the first to publish new information. [\quote]https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154365472974606&id=673494605

 

 

 

 

[snowychap]

We need to take at least a few things from a muppet stabbing people in a tube station shouting crap about 'mother Syria' (whether we discover that yer many has been on many jihadi websites and has probably pledged allegiance to someone or other).

We need to be really, really afraid - even more than of any of the other knife crime that may happen in the capital (or elsewhere); we really need to speculate on just how much connection this has with the vote taken in the commons the other night and everyone on whichever side they are on has to make as much political capital from the incident as possible; oh, and obviously we need more laws and less scrutiny for the lawmakers and the 'authorities'.

[omariqy]

 

I've seen quite a few people say this guy was known to have mental problems. Not sure how true that is.

[chrisp65]

On Omariqy's posting of the 'oddness' of the California shootings. I'm not a great subscriber to conspiracies and I think it is what it looks like.

But I did think it really really odd that journalists were given free reign to wander around the house and pick through their stuff. Would that be standard in the USA? I don't know. I can't believe over here that cameras and reporters could go through someone stuff 48 hours later. I can't believe police and forensics would be finished with it.

[Xela]

12 hours ago, tinker said:

How do we beat them? We ignore them that's how, just like we ignore the other atrocities that happen around the globe.

Problem is its not about atrocities,  it's about control of oil revenues. ISIS are clever to involve Islam in the fight , the western government's are foolish to even entertain the notion religion has anything to do with whats going on.

Corbyn represents the majority of the UK'S voters on this and Cameron will have his majority depleted by this crusade of his. 

Does he? 

We can't ignore them when they're trying to commit atrocities in this country. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Xela

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, Xela said:

Does he? 

We can't ignore them when they're trying to commit atrocities in this country. 

All of the major polls suggest that the UK's voters are in support of Corbyn's point of view on this - around 55-75% depending on which poll you want to read. However, Corbyn's views aren't necessarily reflected in tinkers post. Corbyn certainly isn't looking to ignore the problem of ISIS.

 

[Xela]

Had a quick google and some polls suggest the UK public is in favour of air strikes Syria. Some other ones say they aren't. I would guess that its probably closer to 50-50

 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I don't support bombing but I don't support any kind of appeasement either. I don't support further laws and powers to erode at our liberties nor do I support a complete roll-back of existing laws and powers. I don't know what the answer is. What I do believe is that we are repeating ourselves and will likely keep repeating ourselves in the hope that something will change but it wont. We need a new approach. I don't know what that is, and I don't think our politicians do either.

[Wainy316]

#YouAintNoMuslimBruv is now trending on Twitter.

[Chindie]

42 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Re California shootings

 

Cui bono? Why does the Californian police force benefit from killing 2 'innocent' Muslims when there's 3 evil white guys who like killing the disabled and their carers running around? Why does a garage filled with weapons being separate to the property that owns it add any doubt to the identity of the perpetrator? And so on and so on and so on...

I don't think this Facebook post adds a damn thing to any debate, besides the shocking revelation that in shocking and sensational situations, media and police sources get things wrong, as do witnesses. Oh and that most journalists have no sense of decorum or procedure when it comes to getting some kind of scoop.

[Shaw_nuff]

Billy connolly once said something in his routine about not dropping bombs on 'terrorists', but instead dropping books. To paraphrase "If you only read one **** book how do you think you're going to turn out?"

He has a point - aid and education will win hearts and minds. Keep the neo cons and the bankers out of the Middle East. They've **** it up for decades. ISIS is nothing more than a CIA/MI6 creation backed by Saudi Wahabi-pushed money.

The ultimate aim is to get rid of Assad so it can implement another Rothschild run banking system AND control the oil supply into Europe - Russia under Putin (and maybe backed by China) will NEVER allow this. Russia alone could destroy ISIS if left alone, so ask yourself why they don't just let them get on with it?

Libya, Iraq, Russia, Syria and China (amongst others) all have one thing in common = they want or wanted to break away from the petro-dollar. As we can see, America will go to war before they allow this.

I don't watch MSM news very much. I don't believe ANYTHING the government tells me though their mouthpieces. 

[wazzap24]

Couple of great posts on this page from makeminevanilla and CED. 

For me, this latest bombing campaign will be about as much use as a chocolate fire guard . 

Completely pointless and likely to do more harm than good. Only needs a few civilian casualties and you'll end up radicalising more people than the bombs eradicate. 

Rinse and repeat until some mad bastard eventually fires a nuke. 

[sharkyvilla]

52 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

Couple of great posts on this page from makeminevanilla and CED. 

For me, this latest bombing campaign will be about as much use as a chocolate fire guard . 

Completely pointless and likely to do more harm than good. Only needs a few civilian casualties and you'll end up radicalising more people than the bombs eradicate. 

Rinse and repeat until some mad bastard eventually fires a nuke. 

For me the immediate danger to us is the Paris-style attack with multiple locations at the same time using explosives and machine guns for maximum damage.  I think they'd be almost impossible to plan in the UK/Europe without somebody noticing along the way, and they need organising at least and probably training within the ISIS training camps, which is why we need to attack them in Syria as well.  It's stupid bombing them in Iraq, thus radicalising people anyway, then not being able to do anything about them going to Syria and having free run to do what they want before coming back to cause mayhem over here.  

[foreveryoung]

5 hours ago, Shaw_nuff said:

Billy connolly once said something in his routine about not dropping bombs on 'terrorists', but instead dropping books. To paraphrase "If you only read one **** book how do you think you're going to turn out?"

He has a point - aid and education will win hearts and minds. Keep the neo cons and the bankers out of the Middle East. They've **** it up for decades. ISIS is nothing more than a CIA/MI6 creation backed by Saudi Wahabi-pushed money.

The ultimate aim is to get rid of Assad so it can implement another Rothschild run banking system AND control the oil supply into Europe - Russia under Putin (and maybe backed by China) will NEVER allow this. Russia alone could destroy ISIS if left alone, so ask yourself why they don't just let them get on with it?

Libya, Iraq, Russia, Syria and China (amongst others) all have one thing in common = they want or wanted to break away from the petro-dollar. As we can see, America will go to war before they allow this.

I don't watch MSM news very much. I don't believe ANYTHING the government tells me though their mouthpieces. 

I've heard this story, an it may be close to the truth. But what it doesn't explain is why these CIA, creations (Al Qaeda was also one of) start on us. The conspiracy is they are also mostly controlled by the West.

[Shaw_nuff]

50 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I've heard this story, an it may be close to the truth. But what it doesn't explain is why these CIA, creations (Al Qaeda was also one of) start on us. The conspiracy is they are also mostly controlled by the West.

There are two very good reasons and I'm not saying either of these are true but maybe a combo of both are.

1) Whether under the direction of CIA or not There are those who simply hate the west regardless and the puppet masters simply turn a blind eye.

2) False flags of course. For anyone who thinks the powers that be don't conspire to kill their own people to get what they want: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

I'm of the opinion that the former is closest to the truth. Situations are engineered to provide 'suitable' outcomes. This then gives TPTB the mandate to do whatever they want for our 'protection'.

 

[maqroll]

7 hours ago, Xela said:

Had a quick google and some polls suggest the UK public is in favour of air strikes Syria. Some other ones say they aren't. I would guess that its probably closer to 50-50

 

That's only 100 people, hardly a reliable sample size.

[maqroll]

The National Front is killing it in the polls today in France...quel surprise