Tom Fox

[blandy]

I listened to the audio link that LockStockVilla posted a few pages back of Ron Toss and Fox, and the transfer thing is "interesting". This is what Fox said about what they did in the summer. At about 8:15 Fox says this:

Quote

...we identified the needs that the [then] current manager thought we had, we challenged some of those which led to a great discussion and in the end we got to a very good place in terms of what our needs were and then we went about looking at suggestions on who could fill those needs. Some of those suggestions came from our extensive scouting and recruiting area, some of them came from the manager, and then we talked about those and we tried to create a list of acceptable options in the event that your first choice wasn’t available you had other people you could target….some of the players we brought in had development needs and you want to be honest with your coaching staff about those players about what types of needs they have about how they need to develop, but there was never any suggestion that we were going to get a player that our manager wasn’t supportive of.

Which sounds to me a lot like the manager could say "no" but a number of the players that were bought were not identified by him, were never scouted by him, were not known to him and that the club knew a number of them were nowhere near ready. It's pretty much an admission that the transfer policy is dictated by people outside the manager and whilst both Sherwood and Garde were happy with this, it's come about (as said elsewhere in the audio) because of all the wastage of money in the past. You can't knock the "model" as such, but it needs a manager who knows what he's doing to work with that kind of system. Sherwood lacked that factor. Sherwood was decent with players that he knew and could relate to - players he'd seen and watched and worked with. Not with people he'd never come across before.

Edited December 20, 2015 by blandy
credited LSV for the original link

[TRO]

27 minutes ago, blandy said:

I listened to the audio link that someone posted a few pages back of Ron Toss and Fox, and the transfer thing is "interesting". This is what Fox said about what they did in the summer. At about 8:15 Fox says this:

Which sounds to me a lot like the manager could say "no" but a number of the players that were bought were not identified by him, were never scouted by him, were not known to him and that the club knew a number of them were nowhere near ready. It's pretty much an admission that the transfer policy is dictated by people outside the manager and whilst both Sherwood and Garde were happy with this, it's come about (as said elsewhere in the audio) because of all the wastage of money in the past. You can't knock the "model" as such, but it needs a manager who knows what he's doing to work with that kind of system. Sherwood lacked that factor. Sherwood was decent with players that he knew and could relate to - players he'd seen and watched and worked with. Not with people he'd never come across before.

The danger with all this Pete is......who is going to turn down a lucrative 3+ year contract worth millions on the caveat of not having the authority to buys players, It won't be ideal to them, but nevertheless in this day and age working principles are very much secondary to personal dosh.

They are all going to "have a go" and when it fails its rinse and repeat.....whilst the paymaster gets gradually more and more disinterested in the almost guaranteed cycle of failure.

lets be honest after the initial disappointment has faded the reality of the pay off softens the blow and the initial decision to sign, knowing that you are working with one hand tied behind your back, seemed sensible.

For me all these support staff should report to the manager, including Reilly and Almstadt.

There has to be a robust structure where all footballing matters are the managers responsibility including players selection/recruitment.....Only the financial side should be handled by the CEO or Chairman.

I am also aware, that poor signings cannot carry on unabated, but surely when a manager has identified a player a quick meeting with the hierarchy to justify the target should be suffice.

Ps My view is it should be the manager that identifies the players with the support of HIS subordinates and the board should say "yes" or " no" I think they have it **** about face.....its like the tail is waging the dog @ B6

Edited December 20, 2015 by TRO

[Dr_Pangloss]

19 hours ago, Pilchard said:

When people use the term 'project' to justify poor results in whatever part of life, they are generally trying to justify their position.

"It's easy to look at the table"....it sure is Tom. It's what the whole important point of the football club is all about. And you have failed big time. The extras, the sponsorship etc - that's secondary. And will all disappear in six months time.

Yep, worked with words removed like that before, they are **** useless, like I say, this prick is a jumped up brand manager, has no business being our CEO. Any project that involves us getting relegated (even indirectly through shite player and management recruitment) is not a 'project' at all but a **** catastrophe. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Dr_Pangloss

[HanoiVillan]

37 minutes ago, blandy said:

I listened to the audio link that someone posted a few pages back of Ron Toss and Fox, and the transfer thing is "interesting". This is what Fox said about what they did in the summer. At about 8:15 Fox says this:

Which sounds to me a lot like the manager could say "no" but a number of the players that were bought were not identified by him, were never scouted by him, were not known to him and that the club knew a number of them were nowhere near ready. It's pretty much an admission that the transfer policy is dictated by people outside the manager and whilst both Sherwood and Garde were happy with this, it's come about (as said elsewhere in the audio) because of all the wastage of money in the past. You can't knock the "model" as such, but it needs a manager who knows what he's doing to work with that kind of system. Sherwood lacked that factor. Sherwood was decent with players that he knew and could relate to - players he'd seen and watched and worked with. Not with people he'd never come across before.

Good post, thanks for drawing that to our attention. 

[blandy]

45 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Good post, thanks for drawing that to our attention. 

Having trundled back a few pages it was LockStockVilla who posted the link - I just transcribed a bit I found revealing.

[HanoiVillan]

To be honest, I missed it first time round. Thanks to both then. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

There has to be a robust structure where all footballing matters are the managers responsibility including players selection/recruitment.....Only the financial side should be handled by the CEO or Chairman.

I know what you're saying and part of me agrees, but part of me also thinks it's not realistic. I think the problem as evidenced by what's happened at Villa is that there was a kind of complacency combined with enthusiasm for a more sane transfer policy. By this I mean that as football fans (and probably many managers and commentators etc. would say, we had a poor side last year and a poor squad, we then lost the two best players in Delph and Benteke. The squad needed, desperately needed an addition of instant quality to replace what was lost, plus further strengthening to raise the overall level. But what we got, largely was "development" players who may come good in the future, and a few similar quality players to what we already had. So the overall level was reduced with Benteke and Delph going. Cue worse results.

The desire to have a policy of developing young players clashed with and over-rode the need to be better, just to survive. The balance was askew. It's self evident.

[Kingman]

If this whopper is a CEO of a Premier Football Club, then i know where theres a pub full!

[nick76]

16 hours ago, TRO said:

The danger with all this Pete is......who is going to turn down a lucrative 3+ year contract worth millions on the caveat of not having the authority to buys players, It won't be ideal to them, but nevertheless in this day and age working principles are very much secondary to personal dosh.

They are all going to "have a go" and when it fails its rinse and repeat.....whilst the paymaster gets gradually more and more disinterested in the almost guaranteed cycle of failure.

lets be honest after the initial disappointment has faded the reality of the pay off softens the blow and the initial decision to sign, knowing that you are working with one hand tied behind your back, seemed sensible.

For me all these support staff should report to the manager, including Reilly and Almstadt.

There has to be a robust structure where all footballing matters are the managers responsibility including players selection/recruitment.....Only the financial side should be handled by the CEO or Chairman.

I am also aware, that poor signings cannot carry on unabated, but surely when a manager has identified a player a quick meeting with the hierarchy to justify the target should be suffice.

Ps My view is it should be the manager that identifies the players with the support of HIS subordinates and the board should say "yes" or " no" I think they have it **** about face.....its like the tail is waging the dog @ B6

I agree when you are trying to add that one extra player or a couple but our mass turnover in the summer was harder as managers are on the go fully with games and training and reviewing all those players and then the alternatives, there isnt enough time in the day.  Not sure what the answer is but I agree the manager must choose his own players but part of me wonders how that is physically possible these days with all the games and all the changes we needed to make

[MakemineVanilla]

The only question I would want to ask Fox is: Will you feel obliged to resign should Villa get relegated?

[TRO]

9 hours ago, nick76 said:

I agree when you are trying to add that one extra player or a couple but our mass turnover in the summer was harder as managers are on the go fully with games and training and reviewing all those players and then the alternatives, there isnt enough time in the day.  Not sure what the answer is but I agree the manager must choose his own players but part of me wonders how that is physically possible these days with all the games and all the changes we needed to make

My Fourth Paragraph......Reilly and Almstadt should report to Garde.

I respect the fact that a manager can't be in half a dozen places at once, but Garde is the Manager....He should be ON the job not IN the job if you get my meaning.

They should all be working FOR him.

PS ......its a football club and when that part is right, the rest is a doddle.

Edited December 21, 2015 by TRO

[TRO]

On 12/20/2015 at 15:49, blandy said:

I know what you're saying and part of me agrees, but part of me also thinks it's not realistic. I think the problem as evidenced by what's happened at Villa is that there was a kind of complacency combined with enthusiasm for a more sane transfer policy. By this I mean that as football fans (and probably many managers and commentators etc. would say, we had a poor side last year and a poor squad, we then lost the two best players in Delph and Benteke. The squad needed, desperately needed an addition of instant quality to replace what was lost, plus further strengthening to raise the overall level. But what we got, largely was "development" players who may come good in the future, and a few similar quality players to what we already had. So the overall level was reduced with Benteke and Delph going. Cue worse results.

The desire to have a policy of developing young players clashed with and over-rode the need to be better, just to survive. The balance was askew. It's self evident.

I take your point Pete, We all have to remember that we finished 17th with Benteke,Delph, Cleverley and Vlaar. While we know that it has been brushed to one side.

I think in hindsight, is was too big an ask.

This situation has not just arrived ......it has been with us unabated for seasons now.

We have generally semi-accepted new players as ok, when they haven't been ok.....and here we are.

[andym]

They are working for him aren't they?  They are there to assist the manager - they may have suggestions and input into recruitment, but just like with Sherwood, Garde has final say.

This whole transfer committee thing is really a nothing story that has grown due to media coverage (possibly with the flames fanned by a certain ex manager).

Most teams have transfer committees, technical/sporting directors, heads of recruitment etc. For example Stoke have Mark Cartwright, Chelsea have Michael Emenalo, Spurs have Paul Mitchell (who was previously at Southampton). 

The days of everything being handled by the manager are gone, and in theory that's no bad thing. It means when a manager leaves you don't end up having to replace a whole squad, change the whole structure of the club etc. There is more continuity, and this is being shown to good effect by Southampton for example.

However, the effectiveness of any recruitment structure depends on having people who know what they are doing. And in the summer we definitely did not.  

[Stevo985]

On 20/12/2015 at 14:16, blandy said:

I listened to the audio link that LockStockVilla posted a few pages back of Ron Toss and Fox, and the transfer thing is "interesting". This is what Fox said about what they did in the summer. At about 8:15 Fox says this:

Which sounds to me a lot like the manager could say "no" but a number of the players that were bought were not identified by him, were never scouted by him, were not known to him and that the club knew a number of them were nowhere near ready. It's pretty much an admission that the transfer policy is dictated by people outside the manager and whilst both Sherwood and Garde were happy with this, it's come about (as said elsewhere in the audio) because of all the wastage of money in the past. You can't knock the "model" as such, but it needs a manager who knows what he's doing to work with that kind of system. Sherwood lacked that factor. Sherwood was decent with players that he knew and could relate to - players he'd seen and watched and worked with. Not with people he'd never come across before.

Like I sai din the CITW forum, I don't agree with your interpretation there at all.

The key part is the "WE" in the first sentence of your transcription includes Sherwood.

Some of the suggestions for players to satisfy the manager's needs (oo err) is surely how every club operates. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by Stevo985

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

My Fourth Paragraph......Reilly and Almstadt should report to Garde.

I respect the fact that a manager can't be in half a dozen places at once, but Garde is the Manager....He should be ON the job not IN the job if you get my meaning.

They should all be working FOR him.

PS ......its a football club and when that part is right, the rest is a doddle.

They do. I see it this way:

The manager might say - I need a left back, I like Ashley Cole but see what's out there - oh and the medical staff is a bit short, we need a physio.

Reilly goes and scours his databases and stuff for detail on every left back he thinks might be viable - Fox sounds out Cole's agent - and Almstadt does whatever you need to do to find a physio.

Then Fox, Reilly and the manager reconvene - Fox might say Cole is after £140k a week you can't have him - Reilly will say there's a few here that might be interesting - the manager might say, I don't like that one, I'll take reports on the others.

Then Reilly tells Almstadt he wants them scouted for the manager - Almstadt contacts the scouts in wherever, gets them flights, hotels, tickets, dinner or whatever they need to compile a report and they go out and report back to Reilly.

Then Reilly and Fox and the manager get back together - Reilly says "here are the reports, what do you think" and by the way, I think this one's fantastic the scouts are raving about him and he's a good price - the manager has a look and if he really fancies it, he flies out and sees the player himself - at the end of the process, they come to an agreement about who they want and Fox goes out and gets him.

Meanwhile Almstadt tells the manager I've got a physio that wants to come, he's worked at Blackburn or wherever, do you know him - and the manager might ask someone he knows that's worked with him or he might just say yes. If he doesn't like him, he'll say no, find me another one.

Then, if the player is good, the manager can say I used the scouts and system here to find a real pearl, I'm great I am and if the player is a dud, he can get his mates to tell everyone it's not his fault.

Same system as Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United, Leicester, Palace, West Ham, Everton etc - and a system where the manager has more of a say than he has at Chelsea, or Tottenham, or Watford for example.

 

[blandy]

11 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

They do. I see it this way:..... Reilly says "here are the reports, what do you think" and by the way, I think this one's fantastic the scouts are raving about him and he's a good price - the manager has a look and if he really fancies it, he flies out and sees the player himself - at the end of the process, they come to an agreement about who they want and Fox goes out and gets him.

I find it difficult to believe that Sherwood actually watched all the players that were signed.  Not so long ago any manager signing a player in the way described would be thought to be taking a massive risk.

[mwj]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

I find it difficult to believe that Sherwood actually watched all the players that were signed.  Not so long ago any manager signing a player in the way described would be thought to be taking a massive risk.

Yeh, that was called the 1980's

[KHV]

13 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

They do. I see it this way:

The manager might say - I need a left back, I like Ashley Cole but see what's out there - oh and the medical staff is a bit short, we need a physio.

Reilly goes and scours his databases and stuff for detail on every left back he thinks might be viable - Fox sounds out Cole's agent - and Almstadt does whatever you need to do to find a physio.

Then Fox, Reilly and the manager reconvene - Fox might say Cole is after £140k a week you can't have him - Reilly will say there's a few here that might be interesting - the manager might say, I don't like that one, I'll take reports on the others.

Then Reilly tells Almstadt he wants them scouted for the manager - Almstadt contacts the scouts in wherever, gets them flights, hotels, tickets, dinner or whatever they need to compile a report and they go out and report back to Reilly.

Then Reilly and Fox and the manager get back together - Reilly says "here are the reports, what do you think" and by the way, I think this one's fantastic the scouts are raving about him and he's a good price - the manager has a look and if he really fancies it, he flies out and sees the player himself - at the end of the process, they come to an agreement about who they want and Fox goes out and gets him.

Meanwhile Almstadt tells the manager I've got a physio that wants to come, he's worked at Blackburn or wherever, do you know him - and the manager might ask someone he knows that's worked with him or he might just say yes. If he doesn't like him, he'll say no, find me another one.

Then, if the player is good, the manager can say I used the scouts and system here to find a real pearl, I'm great I am and if the player is a dud, he can get his mates to tell everyone it's not his fault.

Same system as Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United, Leicester, Palace, West Ham, Everton etc - and a system where the manager has more of a say than he has at Chelsea, or Tottenham, or Watford for example.

 

This is Villa, we do things cheaply. Manager identifies left back and says we need a physio. Reilly and Almstadt log on to football manager, they look good on the game so we take a look at some youtube clips and then take a punt

[StefanAVFC]

I know you're joking but we're still a multi-million pound company. We do things properly.

And Almstadt has nothing to do with player recruitment.

How many times.

[KHV]

14 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I know you're joking but we're still a multi-million pound company. We do things properly.

And Almstadt has nothing to do with player recruitment.

How many times.

It was part of the joke as OBE said Almstadt does whatever you need to do to find a physio, I was suggesting Almstadt also logs on to FM to find one.

We are a multi million pound company but as for doing things properly I'm not so sure about that because we are in a right mess on and off the pitch. Granted they probably do put a bit more effort in when finding players and staff etc!