What is your experience of mental health?

[RimmyJimmer]

5 hours ago, legov said:

 

In my experience, it was improvement in mental state that came before the exercise bit. Only after a substantial degree of improvement did I find myself having the motivation and energy levels to restart a running routine.

Obviously recovery processes will differ from person to person, but that's just my two cents from my subjective anecdotal expeorience.

Yes it depends on the severity of your feelings. I suffered from general anxiety for many years which resulted in some pretty horrific periods of panic. When I look back, a lot of my problems were made a lot worse by my choice of lifestyle, which included drinking way too much and doing little exercise. What I find now is that exercise and a healthy lifestyle keeps those demons away...I almost use it as medication. I haven't had a panic attack for years now. I kind of forgot how difficult it was to motivate myself back then to go running etc. I just do it automatically now.

I realise mental illness is a very broad and complex area and like you say, every case is different. I think doing what you can to help yourself by being physically healthy just gives you a leg up, so to speak, on your recovery. 

[maqroll]

IMO, the good news is there is much less of a stigma now, for mental health issues, and seeking treatment for them.

 

my experiences have taught me that you and i are just as crazy as the next guy, but he might hide it well, and good for him. i like people who are honest with their weaknesses, whatever they might be.

 

 

 

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

IMO, the good news is there is much less of a stigma now, for mental health issues, and seeking treatment for them.

 

my experiences have taught me that you and i are just as crazy as the next guy, but he might hide it well, and good for him. i like people who are honest with their weaknesses, whatever they might be.

Yep. To repeat something I posted earlier in this thread, it's really no different from physical illness. Except for the very odd freakish exception, EVERYBODY gets ill occasionally. If you're lucky it's only the occasional bout (cold viruses, mild anxiety, feeling a bit down); if you're very unlucky, something more nasty (cancer, severe depression, schizophrenia). It's all treatable to a degree, and no reason why one should be more shameful or embarrassing than the other. If it's minor, self-treat as advised in this thread (lifestyle change). If it's worse, get some medical advice. It's common sense. 

[MakemineVanilla]

How can people tell the difference between normal levels of unhappiness and depression?

And how happy should a person expect to be?

[Paddywhack]

16 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

How can people tell the difference between normal levels of unhappiness and depression?

And how happy should a person expect to be?

Funnily enough I wanted to ask a similar question yesterday in this thread, but I didn't know if it was appropriate, it might be a bit like talking about a paper cut in an amputee meeting.

But I do get this weird thing every now and then where I just feel like crap for a few hours, an 'everything's pointless' kind of attitude, pissed off about something even though I don't know what it is, a stupid thing like my laptop playing up is the end of the world and things that I usually enjoy suddenly feel empty. 

The missus just has to leave me alone for a while until I snap out of it. Then when I feel better, I have no idea why I was so down and I just forget about it and I feel like I was just being like a moody teenager. Maybe I'm just going through puberty still.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Paddywhack

[Jenko#4]

17 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Funnily enough I wanted to ask a similar question yesterday in this thread, but I didn't know if it was appropriate, it might be a bit like talking about a paper cut in an amputee meeting.

But I do get this weird thing every now and then where I just feel like crap for a few hours, an 'everything's pointless' kind of attitude, pissed off about something even though I don't know what it is, a stupid thing like my laptop playing up is the end of the world and things that I usually enjoy suddenly feel empty. 

The missus just has to leave me alone for a while until I snap out of it. Then when I feel better, I have no idea why I was so down and I just forget about it and I feel like I was just being like a moody teenager. Maybe I'm just going through puberty still.

I get this pretty much word-for-word as well, especially the part around being pissed off about something even though I don't know what it is. Then I end up getting even more frustrated and moody because I don't know what I'm being moody about.

I've worked out that mine seems to correlate to some sort of mental 'comedown'. If I've had a good night out, or spent some quality time with the missus/mates, or even had a productive day at work, then once that is over I seem to hit a wall. Once i realised that was what it is, it made the feelings more palatable and manageable. 

[MakemineVanilla]

8 minutes ago, Jenko#4 said:

I get this pretty much word-for-word as well, especially the part around being pissed off about something even though I don't know what it is. Then I end up getting even more frustrated and moody because I don't know what I'm being moody about.

I've worked out that mine seems to correlate to some sort of mental 'comedown'. If I've had a good night out, or spent some quality time with the missus/mates, or even had a productive day at work, then once that is over I seem to hit a wall. Once i realised that was what it is, it made the feelings more palatable and manageable. 

Personally, I am always aware that I am at my most vulnerable to a bout of misery when I am feeling very/too happy.

The downside of happiness is that it definitely lowers the defences and leaves you vulnerable: the resulting predictable 'comedown' always feels like hubris.

[Paddywhack]

12 minutes ago, Jenko#4 said:

I get this pretty much word-for-word as well, especially the part around being pissed off about something even though I don't know what it is. Then I end up getting even more frustrated and moody because I don't know what I'm being moody about.

I've worked out that mine seems to correlate to some sort of mental 'comedown'. If I've had a good night out, or spent some quality time with the missus/mates, or even had a productive day at work, then once that is over I seem to hit a wall. Once i realised that was what it is, it made the feelings more palatable and manageable. 

That probably makes sense for me too. Maybe it's when I don't have something to look forward to as well.

Although just talking about it makes me feel like I'm making a big deal about nothing, because I'm absolutely fine right now. 

[Demitri_C]

On 8/22/2016 at 02:03, kurtsimonw said:

Depression has really started to creep back in these last few months and can't help but feel it's getting on top of me again. I'm stuck on jury service for the next month+. Can barely get any sleep at night. Work is shit, money is tight, social life has been reduced to the point where it barely exists. Feel like I should stop putting off seeing my doctor, but I don't like wasting their time and I know there's nothing he's going to say that's going to change anything.

Just frustrating.

You need to try focus on the good things in your life mate, I know its easier said than done but sounds like you have good health? My ex of 3 and half years had no health problems and she has been recently diagnosed with a brain tumor and its half the size of her brain. They have failed to removed twice with ops as its too large and getting close to the center of the brain. she is only 33 but she is trying to stay positive by thinking of all the good things going for her.

We sometimes get stuck thinking the worst with domestic issues which seem like the end of the world when really they are not and it could be worse. Embrace life, love who you and don't let anyone tell you other wise.

[PaulC]

3 hours ago, RimmyJimmer said:

Yes it depends on the severity of your feelings. I suffered from general anxiety for many years which resulted in some pretty horrific periods of panic. When I look back, a lot of my problems were made a lot worse by my choice of lifestyle, which included drinking way too much and doing little exercise. What I find now is that exercise and a healthy lifestyle keeps those demons away...I almost use it as medication. I haven't had a panic attack for years now. I kind of forgot how difficult it was to motivate myself back then to go running etc. I just do it automatically now.

I realise mental illness is a very broad and complex area and like you say, every case is different. I think doing what you can to help yourself by being physically healthy just gives you a leg up, so to speak, on your recovery. 

Yes theres many benefits to exercise not just physically. The release of serotonin and dopamine play a major part in good mental health and exercises helps with that. My major problem is lack of sleep. No more than 2 or 3 hours sleep night leaves me to exhausted to go for a run. 

[AVFCDAN]

I wonder what peoples opinions are of American medicinal culture vs our own?

I'm still astounded at just how frequently and casually Americans seem willing to medicate themselves. Obviously I don't personally know any Americans but I do listen to quite a few podcasts involving them and they all seem to be on medication of some kind, having also seen Louis Theroux's documentary and from what I have casually observed in the media and TV it really is common place. Is this just because they are ahead of he curve in terms of being open and doing something about it or has it almost become in vogue to have issues and to be actively treating them?

I can't help but think that 50 years ago half the population of America and the UK weren't all walking round anxious and depressed because they didn't have their meds to sort it out. Is it just a symptom of modern society or something more than that?

Really fascinating topic I think.

[Straggler]

Hi all, apologies in advance as this is likely to run a little long.  For those of you more inclined to write tldnr then I would simply say take a look here:

http://oxfordmindfulness.org/

If you are interested to know why I recommend them keep reading. I write this a little bit from the outside looking in.  My wife suffers from depression and anxiety and has been treated with Citalopram for the last 3 years.  We have two kids. My wife has always had quite pronounced peaks and troughs on her emotional scale and it is fair to say has a lot of demons from her childhood that have left her with major trust issues.  Sadly when her mum passed about 5 years ago she went into her lowest trough and didn't come out. 

As much as it pains me to say it, her mum was the last person on earth that my wife really believed loved her unconditionally and it broke her to lose that connection.  The result though was a disaster for the family.  My wife always had a short fuse and has really only one coping mechanism to deal with fear and sadness and it is to go on the attack.  It became horribly predictable how any day would pan out as any small setback (something as simple as getting out the door to go to the shop 5 mins late) would get over analysed, blown out of all proportion and result in her delivering screaming and uncontrolled tirades of abuse. 

I don't use the word abuse lightly either.  By any reasonable definition of abuse I was living in an abusive relationship.  The combination of crippling anxiety and childhood trust issues resulted in incredibly controlling behavior.  All the money I earned (she didn't work) had to go into an account that she controlled, every penny spent had to be accounted for, my phone regularly checked, I provided passwords for email and social media accounts so she could monitor my activity there.  Verbal abuse of the most aggressive and belittling that you can imagine and the occasional punch thrown (she is tiny she cannot actually hurt me with a punch and she never hit the kids, but the experience of being hit by someone you love and just waiting for it to be over so you can get out of the room is one I hope you are all spared).

Unfortunately the verbal tirades would on occasion be directed at my eldest son.  He was 6 at the time this started and a good natured kid, not an angel, but not a terror either.  The stuff he had to deal with was just not fair on him at all.  Behavior that would be considered funny one day could make her snap on another and the unpredictable delivery of uncontrolled character assassination to a 6 year old left their relationship on the cusp of breaking down all together.  He had no coping mechanism (who would at 6?) and relied entirely on me stepping in-between them and focusing her wrath on me.  My son then stopped going to her for anything, I got all the questions about how stuff and life works and he ran to me if something broke or he got hurt.  The problem was the more he turned away from her the angrier she got accusing me of turning her child against her.  It was a downward spiral and it was hurting everyone. 

I have no doubt that she loved us all.  In the moments where the depression lifted enough she could see the damage she was doing and I firmly believed that if she had to chose to step infront of a truck to save any one of us she would do it.  The problem was that it was beginning to get to a point where we would not actually have to be in danger for her to consider sacrificing herself for the greater good of the family.  This behavior had been continuing for about 2 years by this point.  You may wonder why I would hang around for two years in this environment, but I always thought that she would get better.  I thought she was grieving and that she would readjust over time and I would get back to the person I married.  What I didn't understand was that she was depressed and that without help she may never get better.  It was only at the point where I was considering leaving to get the kids out of there (even she had agreed that if we were ever to split up that it would be better for us all for me to have the kids) that I started reading about abusive relationships.

I didn't have many friends left that I could talk about this with.  My wife had pretty systematically driven them out of my life or made it impossible to maintain a reasonable relationship as I could not communicate freely with anyone.  It just happened that the Guardian started running a series on abusive relationships and I was startled to find that I was in one.  There are none so blind as those that will not see as they say.  I realised that what I was experiencing was not a normal grieving process and my home life really very unhealthy.  I should put a thank you in here to the Guardian, it is thanks to the thoughtful, well written, properly researched and socially aware quality journalism that I became educated in what was happening and how to take the next steps. 

I read copiously, and found the links between abuse and mental illness.  The more I read the more I understood of the sickness of depression and the more I recognised the symptoms. The reading gave me coping methods for dealing with my situation, it gave me more empathy and consideration for her and gave me the confidence that I could make a positive change and that I had the weight of medical opinion on my side.  I was able to explain to my wife that she had an illness, one that so many of you in this thread have very eloquently described and that like a cold or virus that she should seek treatment.

Our local GP diagnosed her as suffering from depression and anxiety and immediately prescribed Citalopram and to seek out an NHS therapist.  The drugs gave her some bad dreams at the start, but it did even her out.  She would describe the effect as just feeling less.  Her lows not as low her highs not as high, but also a feeling like she was not there, like she was watching her own life on TV, not really feeling it or participating in it.  To me that is not really a solution it is the treatment of a symptom. 

In my opinion NHS psychiatric therapy was pathetic. There is an article, again on the Guardian website that mirrors our experience (Titled "The NHS mental health 'service'? There isn't one").  It explains far better than I can the inadequacies.  It was tough enough for my wife to leave the house never mind go through the exhausting process of starting from ground 0 with new person after new person, none of which seemed to know the details of any previous therapy session or any of her medical history.  She quickly lost faith in the sessions and I can't blame her.

After almost 2 years on the Citalopram my wife heard about the mindfulness classes at Oxford University.  By this time our lives had normalised a little bit.  The worst excesses of my wife's behavior had the edge taken off them, I had taken back an acceptable amount of my independence and the family was just about working in our little unit.  However my wife was in no way improving beyond what the drugs were doing for her.  The Dr was not going to reduce to dose or begin to look at taking her off the drugs until the underlying problem was under control and frankly without the drugs the depression was clearly there ready to come seeping insidiously back in. 

To be frank I thought that mindfulness sounded like hippy bullshit.  However I did my due diligence and thanks largely to the fact that it is run as part of Oxford University my opinion eased.  Oxford Uni is at the cutting edge of psychiatric treatment, as it is at the cutting edge of so much else, so even if it is hippy bullshit, it will be the very best hippy bullshit you can find.  We paid to get my wife on the 8 week course.  It cost £350.  You can get referred to one through your GP, but there are a bunch of hoops to jump through and as I have previously mentioned we were thoroughly fed up with dealing with the NHS mental health service. 

The funny thing is that it actually worked.  The mindfulness people themselves will admit that it does not work for everyone and I think this is to be accepted.  Mental health treatment is as individual as your finger print and what works for one will not necessarily work for another.  However for my wife it began to make a difference before the course was even half over.  After every session my wife would come home and probably spend longer than the session took explaining what she had learned and how it was effecting her.  As she taught it to me I began to see how they were giving her the coping mechanisms to deal with her depression.  They were teaching her how to identify when she was beginning to feel anxious and then once it is identified (no small feat I can tell you) how to organise her thought processes to prevent it from overcoming her. 

She taught me about triggers. We all have triggers, the little things that generate an automatic response from you without having to engage thought.  The flash of anger is someone changes lane without indicating or the frustration salt being in the wrong cupboard, the sort of thing that can impact on your mood in an instant way beyond the actual effect it has had on your life. Mindfulness teaches you to be in the moment.  It really sounds like hippy bull as I write it, but the practical difference is that when you find the salt in the wrong cupboard you don't just turn around and yell because you are angry. Instead you recognize the salt being in the wrong place as a trigger, you recognize that this makes you angry, you accept the feeling and then you analyze the anger and have the coping mechanism to weigh the real impact on your life of finding the salt in the wrong place.  On understanding that in the big scheme of things the salt being there is not really such a big deal you are able to act in a more proportionate way and gently inform the culprit that they put the salt in the wrong place.  It sounds a bit trite in the example I have just given, but I'm sure you can get the idea.  All that thought process happens in a flash in your head, but the output as a human being becomes one of calm correction rather than a burst of outrage.

This describes only a small subset of the tools and coping mechanisms that the course provides and I won't try and explain them all here.  I heard it all second hand anyway so I am probably not doing it a fair service with my retelling. All I will say is that I saw it work on my wife.  I could almost see the thought process going though her head as she tested out what she had learned in real life and I was so proud of her working so hard to implement it.  We would even catch ourselves using triggers before we did them and share in a laugh as we see the other person bite their tongue on something as they realize the impact it might have. 

I hope you can understand how important it is to say sharing in a laugh.  I love to laugh, I even think I'm a pretty funny guy, but I had not shared one with my wife for years.  I had pretty much stopped trying to make her laugh as I would get shot down as being stupid or flippant.  This is tough for me as I am a real "Chandler" using humor as a defense mechanism.  A couple of years of conversations being little more than making sure the bills are paid and the fridge full, punctuated by blazing rows can really grind you down.  Sharing a laugh is a motherfunsting break through (I'm tearing up as I write this bit so I know it means some serious shit to me). 

In short I'm beginning to get my wife back.  I don't know if things will ever be the same as they once were, but I'm not sure that life works that way anyway.  You can never cross the same river twice they say.  Anyway, all we can do is work at making tomorrow better and mindfulness is the first thing that really helped us take a positive step in the right direction. 

I'm not going to kid around, the course takes effort and there is homework (mostly meditation) to be done every day.  You need to turn up and take part and it will be hard as it asks you to take a good hard look into some of the darker places of yourself.  I'm so proud of my wife that she fought through all her demons, her anxiety and impulses to not do something and made it through the whole thing homework and all.  Also I can only speak for the course run at Oxford University.  I'm aware there are courses all over the place but they and they may use the same techniques, but I have my own trust issues with psychiatric care so I was only happy with going to the source.

I did warn you I may go long on this one and I'm pretty knackered myself from writing all this out.  If you have any questions I'm happy to try and answer them.  I understand the importance of having a safe place to ask questions and this thread is a really good example of just such a place. good luck to you all.

[Straggler]

I should probably also mention that the improvement in my wife has been noticed by her GP and she has had her dosage reduced with a view to take her off anti-depressants for good.

[Jenko#4]

29 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

I wonder what peoples opinions are of American medicinal culture vs our own?

I'm still astounded at just how frequently and casually Americans seem willing to medicate themselves. Obviously I don't personally know any Americans but I do listen to quite a few podcasts involving them and they all seem to be on medication of some kind, having also seen Louis Theroux's documentary and from what I have casually observed in the media and TV it really is common place. Is this just because they are ahead of he curve in terms of being open and doing something about it or has it almost become in vogue to have issues and to be actively treating them?

I can't help but think that 50 years ago half the population of America and the UK weren't all walking round anxious and depressed because they didn't have their meds to sort it out. Is it just a symptom of modern society or something more than that?

Really fascinating topic I think.

I wonder if it is as simple as US healthcare being private, and ours being public? I may be completely wrong on this (maybe an American can help out) but aren't US doctors and clinics  essentially profit making organisations? So if they can push pills to everyone then they make money, explaining why so many people are on medication. The NHS is trying to save money, so maybe they think it better to go through other routes first (exercise, diet, therapists etc..) before giving away medication?

This is a very black and white way of looking at it, apologies if I've offended anyone.

[BOF]

20 hours ago, maqroll said:

bicycling is my thing, cuz my joints can't handle running anymore. my life would be measurably worse if i didn't ride my bike. does wonders for feeling good mentally, as well as physically. 

i'm on sertraline too, and it works great, except its not easy reaching orgasm, which is not always a bad thing if you plan being superman for the night 

 

What I got from that is you ride your bike at night in a superman costume while on constant vinegar strokes.

 

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, Jenko#4 said:

I wonder if it is as simple as US healthcare being private, and ours being public? I may be completely wrong on this (maybe an American can help out) but aren't US doctors and clinics  essentially profit making organisations? So if they can push pills to everyone then they make money, explaining why so many people are on medication. The NHS is trying to save money, so maybe they think it better to go through other routes first (exercise, diet, therapists etc..) before giving away medication?

This is a very black and white way of looking at it, apologies if I've offended anyone.

Ours GPS are privately run aren't they and they get bonuses for pushing certain drugs. 

[MakemineVanilla]

1 hour ago, Straggler said:

Hi all, apologies in advance as this is likely to run a little long.  For those of you more inclined to write tldnr then I would simply say take a look here:

http://oxfordmindfulness.org/

If you are interested to know why I recommend them keep reading. I write this a little bit from the outside looking in.  My wife suffers from depression and anxiety and has been treated with Citalopram for the last 3 years.  We have two kids. My wife has always had quite pronounced peaks and troughs on her emotional scale and it is fair to say has a lot of demons from her childhood that have left her with major trust issues.  Sadly when her mum passed about 5 years ago she went into her lowest trough and didn't come out. 

Sorry to be so cynical but it reads like a professionally written product endorsement to me.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Criticism

Quote

The popularization of mindfulness as a "commodity"[139] has been criticized, being termed "McMindfulness" by some critics.[web 8][web 9][140] According to Safran, the popularity of mindfulness is the result of a marketing strategy:[139] "McMindfulness is the marketing of a constructed dream; an idealized lifestyle; an identity makeover."[139][141][142]

 

 

[Straggler]

9 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Sorry to be so cynical but it reads like a professionally written product endorsement to me.

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Criticism

 

 

Cynicism poorly placed here.  TBH it makes me a little sad that I should put all that effort into writing about a very personal and difficult experience and have it dismissed as a marketing tool.  I am in no way associated with Mindfulness other than my wife went on a course with them.  I flog Cisco kit for a living.  I don't disagree with doing research into any course like this with a certain amount of cynicism, I certainly was wary of them at the start for similar reasons. 

Also if you think I've been lurking on this site since 2005 just waiting for the right thread to come along to pitch this then, well I just don't know.  What I wrote is all true and it is only here as I thought it may help to share what I had been through.  I don't know whether to be angry or sad that you have taken it this way, but I will try and take it as a compliment on my writing style. 

I'm leaning more towards angry though as if this had been a marketing pitch it would have been one of the lowest and gutter trawling types of marketing.  Seeking out the most vulnerable people at their lowest ebb and selling a lie would be the work of a complete scumball and I'm certainly not that.  I've been around this VT community for a long time.  I'm not the best known as I tend post infrequently, but I like to think that most of what I bring has shown me as a decent human being not the sort of scum that would pull that nonsense on a fellow Villa fan.

 

[Paddywhack]

Not to speak for MV, but I think he meant the website rather than your post.

I think it's irrelevant anyway. Product endorsement, money making scheme, free NHS service, who cares? It's helping your wife, you and your family and I found your post really interesting and eye opening. Thank you for sharing.

[Straggler]

7 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Not to speak for MV, but I think he meant the website rather than your post.

I think it's irrelevant anyway. Product endorsement, money making scheme, free NHS service, who cares? It's helping your wife, you and your family and I found your post really interesting and eye opening. Thank you for sharing.

Too be fair reading my post back it does read a little like a product endorsement.  First for the Guardian website and then for Mindfulness. I guess I shouldn't be too pissed off if it is interpreted that way.  It is just that I genuinely have not spoken in this much detail about what has happened to me to anyone ever.  It was quite therapeutic just writing the post and I felt really good getting it all out there in one place.  As I said at the end it felt like this thread was a safe place to talk and MV's comment rather burst my bubble.  I guess I have seen enough times that on the internet that intent and interpretation can be wildly different and not to get too caught up in it all.  Thanks for your comment.