What is your experience of mental health?

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

I'm bound by confidentiality agreements but suffice to say I've seen robust scientific proof that mindfulness practice has a huge positive effect on anxiety, depression, and our ability to resist the onset of it

Why would you be bound by confidentiality agreements not to spread news of robust scientific proof?

Mindfulness (or whatever may pass for it) may (and does) work for some people but it may not (and doesn't) work for others. Rather like drugs, psychiatry, therapy, exercise, gardening, cessation of self-medication, &c.

It'll be a breakthrough for mental health services when we stop trying to treat those conditions in the same way as we do physical ailments, i.e. one size fits all. The gamut of supposed fixes as per the list above would suggest that we ought to understand that it's not just a case of applying a splint or taking an antibiotic.

[chrisp65]

Michael Mosley

interesting programme a couple of nights ago that suggests personality can influence health which in turn influences life expectancy

it's fairly light on analysis on drilling down in to data, but it suggests if you are 'negative' you'll suffer and it suggests there are tactics that can make you more positive

make of it what you will, hippy bull, mindfulness, mind control, belief in yourself, belief in something good, placebo, or bullshit

if it works for you, then it works

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

if it works for you, then it works

That's the maxim.

Edit: Also, I like Mosley's telly programmes. There's some very interesting stuff on most if not all of them - with the proviso, as you say, that there's not much opportunity to go deeply in to the subject in that one hour slot.

Edited August 25, 2016 by snowychap

[NurembergVillan]

57 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Why would you be bound by confidentiality agreements not to spread news of robust scientific proof?

Mindfulness (or whatever may pass for it) may (and does) work for some people but it may not (and doesn't) work for others. Rather like drugs, psychiatry, therapy, exercise, gardening, cessation of self-medication, &c.

It'll be a breakthrough for mental health services when we stop trying to treat those conditions in the same way as we do physical ailments, i.e. one size fits all. The gamut of supposed fixes as per the list above would suggest that we ought to understand that it's not just a case of applying a splint or taking an antibiotic.

If it was part of an ongoing research project which isn't ready to be public yet, and I'd signed documents forbidding me from discussing details of it.

The premise is that of mental resilience and the ability to quantify thoughts and bring rationality. It's about how quickly the mind can move past stressors, both positive and negative, and return to a calm state.

Of course there's no one size fits all solution. People who are fit and healthy can still have heart attacks and get cancer. It's about reducing the chances of getting it and increasing the chances of recovery.

[snowychap]

12 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

If it was part of an ongoing research project which isn't ready to be public yet, and I'd signed documents forbidding me from discussing details of it.

Wouldn't that go for discussing any of it?

I understand the 'premise' of mindfulness (I utterly baulk at their claims about 'rationality' btw - much like anyone else who criticizes the depressed for being necessarily irrational) and accept that it may work for some but you cannot then make a claim that it 'has a huge positive effect on anxiety, depression, and our ability to resist the onset of it' whilst saying that the robust scientific proof is not able to be seen 'yet'. I accept (and there seems to plenty of evidence in support of the idea) that it may help people. There is a mile between may help and 'has a huge positive effect'. In that chasm lies many a failed patient.

[villaglint]

For anyone who's interested.

Interesting article I read yesterday on a new link between body and mind in depression. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37166293

Quote

It's not very often we get to talk about a revolution in understanding and treating depression and yet now doctors are talking about "one of the strongest discoveries in psychiatry for the last 20 years".

 

[mjmooney]

TBH, I thought Cartesian dualism died a death years ago. The body and the 'mind' (i.e. brain) are the same thing. 

[villaglint]

Well quite but I think for people who suffer from depression and the "snap out of it" type responses that tend to be forthcoming it is useful to underline that this is a physical disease. Also if you read the article the link comes in quite an unexpected area in this instance in the form of the bodies immune system.

[NurembergVillan]

9 hours ago, snowychap said:

Wouldn't that go for discussing any of it?

I understand the 'premise' of mindfulness (I utterly baulk at their claims about 'rationality' btw - much like anyone else who criticizes the depressed for being necessarily irrational) and accept that it may work for some but you cannot then make a claim that it 'has a huge positive effect on anxiety, depression, and our ability to resist the onset of it' whilst saying that the robust scientific proof is not able to be seen 'yet'. I accept (and there seems to plenty of evidence in support of the idea) that it may help people. There is a mile between may help and 'has a huge positive effect'. In that chasm lies many a failed patient.

Well yes it would, but I thought I might be able to potentially help a few people out and decided to take the risk.

Rationality is in the terms of rational thinking, not the premise that it's irrational to be anxious or depressed.  It's a basic premise of CBT to help people understand what is a realistic fear or expectation vs what isn't.  Ruminating doesn't help, and mindfulness can support the ability to eliminate rumination.

If what you're looking for is a climbdown so I'll say "can have a huge positive effect" then you're welcome to it.  I posted to try and help fellow sufferers of anxiety and depression, not to get into an argument.

[snowychap]

2 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Well yes it would, but I thought I might be able to potentially help a few people out and decided to take the risk.

Rationality is in the terms of rational thinking, not the premise that it's irrational to be anxious or depressed.  It's a basic premise of CBT to help people understand what is a realistic fear or expectation vs what isn't.  Ruminating doesn't help, and mindfulness can support the ability to eliminate rumination.

If what you're looking for is a climbdown so I'll say "can have a huge positive effect" then you're welcome to it.  I posted to try and help fellow sufferers of anxiety and depression, not to get into an argument.

Sorry, I didn't mean to decry what you were trying to do or the help you were trying to offer and I'll repeat that if these things help some people then that's great but I have a real issue with the certainty with which these things are put forward.

I think can is a much better way of putting it but I'm not looking for a 'climbdown' as it's not about winning an argument but about people putting opinions across (you yours and me mine).

I may not have expressed myself too well if you thought that I meant it's irrational to be anxious or depressed; I was talking about the view that those who are depressed are in a position where they aren't capable of rational thought or are less capable of it than those who are not or those looking on. Unfortunately, what is often meant by 'not rational' in these circumstances is 'not the same as everyone else' and whilst making people's thought processes more 'normal' can be of benefit for some, for others it can cause problems.

[NurembergVillan]

45 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to decry what you were trying to do or the help you were trying to offer and I'll repeat that if these things help some people then that's great but I have a real issue with the certainty with which these things are put forward.

I think can is a much better way of putting it but I'm not looking for a 'climbdown' as it's not about winning an argument but about people putting opinions across (you yours and me mine).

I may not have expressed myself too well if you thought that I meant it's irrational to be anxious or depressed; I was talking about the view that those who are depressed are in a position where they aren't capable of rational thought or are less capable of it than those who are not or those looking on. Unfortunately, what is often meant by 'not rational' in these circumstances is 'not the same as everyone else' and whilst making people's thought processes more 'normal' can be of benefit for some, for others it can cause problems.

No problem.  Cyber-handshake initiated...

Back onto the rationality aspect, speaking from personal experience rational thinking played a huge part.  When I first had CBT back in 2008 an exercise that worked exceptionally well for me was evaluating forthcoming events - "On Saturday I'm going to a party where I won't know anybody except the friend I'm going with" as an example.  I would have to rate what I expected it to be like and why - "it'll be a 3/10, as nobody will talk to me except my friend and so I'll be on my own, bored and lonely".  Then afterwards I would rate the reality - "it was an 8/10, as my friend introduced me to quite a few cool people and I was able have some interesting conversations. I few times I ran out of things to say though, and then I got a bit nervous".

The more I went through that exercise the more I realised how much I was predicting bad outcomes and applying irrational thinking.  Typing it out has reminded me that my most recent counsellor didn't refer to it as rational/irrational but as "unhelpful thoughts" which I think better sums it up.

I heard a great explanation of how meditation can help with that, by giving you greater control over your thoughts.  Imagine yourself sitting by the side of a road, on a bench.  This is you meditating.  Every time a car goes past you it's a thought entering your head.  Every red car is an unhelpful or negative thought.  Meditation is not about stopping the cars from going past, but is about not giving them more than a glance.  The red car passes before your eyes and is gone, as opposed to you seeing it coming, watching it into focus and then following it down the road.  You acknowledge thoughts, positive and negative, but don't dwell on them.

I've also experienced enough of depression to know that it isn't all about thoughts.  Some days I just wake up and there's a cloud inside by brow, hovering over my eyes.  For me, that doesn't have to have originated from unhelpful thoughts, but being able to control those thoughts can help me stop it from completely ruining my day.

I'm talking a good game here, as I've lapsed a little lately.  That's why I've signed up to Headspace.  I've seen proof that being able to manage your thoughts can make a huge difference.  It's for me to try it out properly.

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

 It's for me to try it out properly.

And I very much hope that it works for you, NV.

[MakemineVanilla]

A rational approach to mental health goes back thousands of years and can be found in the teachings of Buddha, the writings of the Stoics and in various forms in psychotherapy.

The approach is constantly reinvented to make it suitable for contemporary preferences, whether it is Rational Emotive Therapy as practised in the 1950s or Mindfulness in the present decade.

Here's the theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_emotive_behavior_therapy

Quote

Theoretical Assumptions:

A fundamental premise of REBT is humans do not get emotionally disturbed by unfortunate circumstances, but by how they construct their views of these circumstances through their language, evaluative beliefs, meanings and philosophies about the world, themselves and others.[11] This concept has been attributed as far back as the Greek philosopher Epictetus, who is often cited as utilizing similar ideas in antiquity.[12] In REBT, clients usually learn and begin to apply this premise by learning the A-B-C-D-E-F model of psychological disturbance and change. The A-B-C model states that it is not an A, adversity (or activating event) that cause disturbed and dysfunctional emotional and behavioral Cs, consequences, but also what people B, irrationally believe about the A, adversity. A, adversity can be an external situation, or a thought, a feeling or other kind of internal event, and it can refer to an event in the past, present, or future.[13]

The Bs, irrational beliefs that are most important in the A-B-C model are explicit and implicit philosophical meanings and assumptions about events, personal desires, and preferences. The Bs, beliefs that are most significant are highly evaluative and consist of interrelated and integrated cognitive, emotional and behavioral aspects and dimensions. According to REBT, if a person's evaluative B, belief about the A, activating event is rigid, absolutistic, fictional and dysfunctional, the C, the emotional and behavioral consequence, is likely to be self-defeating and destructive. Alternatively, if a person's belief is preferential, flexible and constructive, the C, the emotional and behavioral consequence is likely to be self-helping and constructive.

The therapist's task is to lead the client towards a less negative view of an event or a situation.

So basically win an argument with the client - good luck with that then. 

 

Edited August 26, 2016 by MakemineVanilla

[chrisp65]

[mjmooney]

Sounds like transactional analysis. 

[V01]

I had a torrid time in a previous job which caused me no end of work based stress, this developed onto depression before I ended up losing my job. This was the kick I needed to go to the doctor and do something about it. I was put on Citalopram and had my dose increased month by month because the Doctor thought it was working well. It didn't make sense to me but it worked I was completely off Citalopram inside 12 months.

 

The doctor recommended this:

https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome

From what I remember it's basically a diary where you log your day with regards to what you've felt/done and then examine why, you notice patterns of feeling being triggered by particular happenings and learning to recognise when you feel depression or anxiety or whatever so you can break the cycle. 

 

[peterms]

Sad story about a doctor who was honest about her own mental health issues, was complained about for doing so, and is now dead.

Quote

A GP who kept a blog about living with bipolar disorder was found dead after being suspended from work when a patient read her online entries and complained, an inquest has heard...

Raises quite a few issues about duty of care, risk and so on.  Did the complainant feel at risk because they were being treated by someone who had self-identified as having mental health issues?  What is the duty of care in that situation of the employer to the person complained about, and to the patient?  And so on...

[kurtsimonw]

On 8/24/2016 at 10:57, Demitri_C said:

You need to try focus on the good things in your life mate, I know its easier said than done but sounds like you have good health? My ex of 3 and half years had no health problems and she has been recently diagnosed with a brain tumor and its half the size of her brain. They have failed to removed twice with ops as its too large and getting close to the center of the brain. she is only 33 but she is trying to stay positive by thinking of all the good things going for her.

We sometimes get stuck thinking the worst with domestic issues which seem like the end of the world when really they are not and it could be worse. Embrace life, love who you and don't let anyone tell you other wise.

Sorry to hear about your ex, that must be a really awful situation for her and her loved ones.

You're right about the "easier said than done" stuff, though. The second therapist I had was very much about the "appreciate what you have" kind of thought process and honestly, I found it frustrating and unhelpful. Where does it stop? That I should just be happy with simply living? I don't think it helps that I have quite bad social anxiety issues. About the only time I leave the house (due to my current job being almost entirely from home) is for Villa games and the cinema - the latter of which I've been doing less and less lately. 

[Chindie]

I've been regularly recommended mindfulness. I've never truly done it, dabbled a bit, because I'm the kind of person that will attempt to deconstruct something or understand what its trying to do and with mindfulness that just means I won't/don't let it work.

The aim is, from what I understand, to try to centre the thoughts away from the concerns into the here and now, away from a mental world of anxiety stress and worry into a more present, bodily understanding of what's actually being experienced immediately. It works for many people it seems.

I've never spoken to a doctor about my mental state. I'm not right, I know that, I suffer from anxiety in some respects, my mind never really stops running through scenarios and constant worries, I have a vicious internal critic that will attack myself for errors and mistakes, I will beat myself up for days over tiny things and feel dreadful as a consequence, I am quick to anger in things that spark that feeling, I dread getting up some days and many days, because of another condition I have, are a fight from beginning to end even before the mental crap comes in which makes things worse.

I probably should speak to someone about it, but it strikes me as so pathetic i don't think I can face it.

[maqroll]

I've decided to take up yoga, and i'm thinking it could be a two birds with one stone thing for me, or ''Cartesian Dualism'', if you're a real intellectual type 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MNEY....