U.S. Politics

[HanoiVillan]

46 minutes ago, villakram said:

Covid changed all political calculations, hence subsequent analysis must also take this into account. It does meet many of the legal requirements to be categorized as Force Majeure for example.

That's not a great defence. Plenty of other world leaders have significantly improved their approval ratings during the crisis (eg Morrison, Merkel, Trudeau), and others who have flatlined have mostly done so from a higher base (eg Conte, Modi, AMLO). Obviously different countries with different systems, but elections in New Zealand and South Korea suggest that incumbents who are seen to 'have had a good pandemic' have benefitted electorally.

Nobody forced Trump to make America's Covid response so shit.

Edited December 2, 2020 by HanoiVillan

[LondonLax]

3 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

It was impressive that he won the Republican primary, but the reality following that is that he won the presidency despite losing the popular vote simply by having a better geographical distribution of support, which was always quite a weak position, and he then, over four years, managed to inspire literally unprecedented numbers of Americans to vote against him.

Him getting 74 million votes might be an achievement, in some way, but it is obviously over-shadowed by the 'achievement' of persuading 81 million (!) Americans to vote against him. He has run behind down-ballot Republicans across most of the country, and is more unpopular than the generic Republican brand. I just don't think it's much of an 'achievement', let alone a 'pretty incredible' one.

I really feel that the boring, conventional wisdom - he lost, and that's pretty embarrassing - has become hugely under-priced at this point.

I would say the unprecedented voter turnout was more a result of the measures put in place due to the coronavirus than anything Trump inspired.

Many people are ‘disenfranchised’ simply by how difficult it is to vote on a specific day, and a weekday at that. The enormous expansion of the availability of mail voting meant many more than usual were able to vote at a time that was convenient to them. 

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I would say the unprecedented voter turnout was more a result of the measures put in place due to the coronavirus than anything Trump inspired.

Many people are ‘disenfranchised’ simply by how difficult it is to vote on a specific day, and a weekday at that. The enormous expansion of the availability of mail voting meant many more than usual were able to vote at a time that was convenient to them. 

Yes, absolutely; measures to make voting easier worked. This is good, and part of why all this talk of 'fraud' and 'auditing' is so reprehensible (the other part is that it's so clearly in bad faith).

But the big picture, electorally, is that he got fewer votes in 2016 but was close enough to win via geographical distribution; by 2020, he got far fewer votes than his opponent and was not really anywhere near close enough to win. That's just not an incredible achievement.

[StefanAVFC]

15 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

 all this talk of 'fraud' and 'auditing' is so reprehensible (the other part is that it's so clearly in bad faith).

Exactly. 

[villakram]

9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Exactly. 

I disagree.

The country is divided. The amount of partizan interpretation of events is unhealthy to allow to go unchecked. Trump got 74m votes of which a non-negligible number will buy hook, line &... whatever they are sold. They may well be lost but there is another larger group who will have a bad taste left in their mouth.

Audits etc., are a pain in the ass, but how can more light be bad for the voting process? These people are willing to listen, take the loss, dust themselves down and go back to the regular political process. I suspect their willingness will be greatly aided by a clear demonstration of the integrity of the process. So much of the distaste for Trump, was related to his decorum. Well some display of humility from the winning side would be very helpful, and is in fact what is for the most part occurring.

None of this would be necessary, if they bothered to count votes in some sort of logical manner as done in most other countries. Both political parties are accountable here.

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, villakram said:

I disagree.

The country is divided. The amount of partizan interpretation of events is unhealthy to allow to go unchecked. Trump got 74m votes of which a non-negligible number will buy hook, line &... whatever they are sold. They may well be lost but there is another larger group who will have a bad taste left in their mouth.

Audits etc., are a pain in the ass, but how can more light be bad for the voting process? These people are willing to listen, take the loss, dust themselves down and go back to the regular political process. I suspect their willingness will be greatly aided by a clear demonstration of the integrity of the process. So much of the distaste for Trump, was related to his decorum. Well some display of humility from the winning side would be very helpful, and is in fact what is for the most part occurring.

None of this would be necessary, if they bothered to count votes in some sort of logical manner as done in most other countries. Both political parties are accountable here.

 

 

I would agree, if the purpose was not, as @HanoiVillan states, completely in bad faith, adding that Trump is using this chaos to drum up funds.

[HanoiVillan]

7 minutes ago, villakram said:

I disagree.

The country is divided. The amount of partizan interpretation of events is unhealthy to allow to go unchecked. Trump got 74m votes of which a non-negligible number will buy hook, line &... whatever they are sold. They may well be lost but there is another larger group who will have a bad taste left in their mouth.

Audits etc., are a pain in the ass, but how can more light be bad for the voting process? These people are willing to listen, take the loss, dust themselves down and go back to the regular political process. I suspect their willingness will be greatly aided by a clear demonstration of the integrity of the process. So much of the distaste for Trump, was related to his decorum. Well some display of humility from the winning side would be very helpful, and is in fact what is for the most part occurring.

None of this would be necessary, if they bothered to count votes in some sort of logical manner as done in most other countries. Both political parties are accountable here.

I'm afraid I draw a very hard line on this. It is imperative not to do things for people who are only asking for them in bad faith. There has been a $170m legal fund, led by experienced lawyers, with a mandate to find any electoral irregularities they can find, and armed with the knowledge that if they can put together an even half-persuasive case they can probably find a Trump appointed judge to take them seriously, and they have turned up *absolutely nothing*. There has never been an 'audit' of an entire election before, and there is no reason to do one now. There have been *recounts*, and they have demonstrated minuscule errors that mostly expanded Biden's lead at the margins.

You say 'These people are willing to listen, take the loss, dust themselves down and go back to the regular political process'. I say, these people would literally never have been satisfied by any process, and furthermore will never be satisfied by any future process either. They are fully bought into an evidence-free conspiracy theory, and it is does not need to be dignified any further. End of.

Edited December 2, 2020 by HanoiVillan

[villakram]

2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I would agree, if the purpose was not, as @HanoiVillan states, completely in bad faith, adding that Trump is using this chaos to drum up funds.

I would point to the bigger picture rather than focussing on the actions of political creatures. Regardless of intention, the various lawsuits, audits etc. do serve to release some pressure from the bulk of societal discourse.

Wait until you see the charitable foundation they set up for his presidential library. I believe Obama's project is nearing a $1B, so trump will have to claim to be able to beat that

[bickster]

1 hour ago, villakram said:

Audits should be welcomed by all, to unequivocally demonstrate the integrity of the vote, in particular given the large turnout.

Plenty of political shenanigans took place as has been discussed around here on many occasions. There were lots of unfortunate issues with how the count happened too, which creates plenty of room for conspiracy-land to get in high gear.  

So was that a yes or a no?

[villakram]

Just now, bickster said:

So was that a yes or a no?

This is not debate school 101.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, villakram said:

This is not debate school 101.

There's a lot of things this isn't

[TheAuthority]

On 02/12/2020 at 07:56, villakram said:

Audits should be welcomed by all, to unequivocally demonstrate the integrity of the vote, in particular given the large turnout.

Ok, fair point.

Quote

Plenty of political shenanigans took place as has been discussed around here on many occasions. There were lots of unfortunate issues with how the count happened too, which creates plenty of room for conspiracy-land to get in high gear.  

Really? I'm yet to see any credible evidence. For example, I'm not sure what to say about this 'star witness' for the Trump campaign yesterday in Michigan. At one point even Giuliani was trying to reign her in. For context the guy questioning her is a Republican.....

 

[TheAuthority]

 

[TheAuthority]

I can't get enough of her 

 

[sidcow]

13 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Ok, fair point.

Really? I'm yet to see any credible evidence. For example, I'm not sure what to say about this 'star witness' for the Trump campaign yesterday in Michigan. At one point even Giuliani was trying to reign her in. For context the guy questioning her is a Republican.....

 

What a Circus. The USA is really dragging itself through excrement in front of the whole World.  If Guilliani is trying to tap your back to reign you in you've gone so far off the scale were going to need Hubble to find you. 

[TheAuthority]

Just now, sidcow said:

What a Circus. The USA is really dragging itself through excrement in front of the whole World.  If Guilliani is trying to tap your back to reign you in you've gone so far off the scale were going to need Hubble to find you. 

Supposedly General Flynn (the guy just pardoned by Trump) has suggested that the election result should be thrown out. We should do it all again, only with paper ballots and the army should run it. 

Nothing strange or evocative of a Dictatorship there then.

[sne]

Quote

Trump Administration Claims Facebook Improperly Reserved Jobs for H-1B Workers

Lawsuit by Justice Department’s civil-rights division says social-media company didn’t sufficiently advertise open positions, overlooked U.S. residents

The Trump administration has sued Facebook Inc., accusing the social-media company of illegally reserving high-paying jobs for immigrant workers it was sponsoring for permanent residence, rather than searching adequately for available U.S. workers who could fill the positions.

In a 17-page complaint filed Thursday, the Justice Department’s civil-rights division said Facebook inadequately advertised at least 2,600 positions between 2018 and 2019 that were filled by immigrants on H-1B high-skill visas when the company was applying to sponsor those workers for permanent residency, known as green cards.

Companies sponsoring workers for employment-based green cards are required to show as part of the federal application process that they couldn’t find any qualified American workers to fill the job.

The suit said Facebook didn’t advertise the reserved positions on its website and required candidates to mail in their applications rather than accepting them online.

“And even when U.S. workers do apply, Facebook will not consider them for the advertised positions,” the suit alleges. “Simply put, Facebook reserves these positions for temporary visa holders.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-administration-claims-facebook-improperly-reserved-jobs-for-h1-b-workers-11607023044

[Vancvillan]

On 02/12/2020 at 08:14, villakram said:

None of this would be necessary, if they bothered to count votes in some sort of logical manner as done in most other countries. Both political parties are accountable here.

The elections are run by states.  If you think getting two parties to agree on electoral process would be difficult, imagine trying to get 50 to agree. That, and the fact that Texas would immediately tell you where to stick any federal oversight.

Is it a shambles?  Yes.  Is that because maybe, just maybe, the founding fathers made some mistakes and lived in a different time?  Probably.  But let's consider many Americans reverence for documents written hundreds or thousands of years ago.  For those embarking on the Sisyphian act of seeking to enact meaningful change, logic is as blunt a weapon as a stick of butter.

[mjmooney]

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, sne said:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-administration-claims-facebook-improperly-reserved-jobs-for-h1-b-workers-11607023044

It’s a lot easier and less complicated/expensive to hire someone with local working rights than to go through a visa route if you don’t have to. Not sure what they are claiming is Facebook’s motivation for making things more difficult for themselves.