U.S. Politics

[TrentVilla]

Drawing a comparison between Hitler and Trump as individuals is not the same as comparing Hitler to the entire Nazi movement, WWll or the horribly entitled 'final solution'.

Hugely different things. Now people may not agree with them the comparison, fair enough, but don't misrepresent the comparison being made in order to do so.

 

[jon_c]

2 hours ago, Rodders said:

This is so disturbing. That rally 

 

But there was only 9000 people, more than that turn up to watch Villa every week. If Villa can get a better turn out than Trump, what does that tell you.

[blandy]

5 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Drawing a comparison between Hitler and Trump as individuals is not the same as comparing Hitler to the entire Nazi movement, WWll or the horribly entitled 'final solution'.

Hugely different things. Now people may not agree with them the comparison, fair enough, but don't misrepresent the comparison being made in order to do so.

The misrepresentation is in selecting Hitler as a comparison to Trump. Why pick the major example of a man infamous for genocide? Isn't that a bit dumb? I mean why not pick, as Dean infers, a different, non-genocidal example? By selecting a genuine murdering maniac as your comparison, you tend to draw the eye to the genocide and away from the common number of arms and legs. 

There's also a significant invalidator, in that Trump calling journalists "dishonest" in a press conference is not the same as actually outlawing free speech, or a free press. Talking crap on twitter is not the same as locking up and torturing dissenters.

Finally, calling anyone a Hitler, or making comparisons to Hitler is a sign of losing a debate. Trump supporters would be righty utterly dismissive of people comparing the POTUS to hitler. It's a ludicrous thing to do.

Trump is an orange barmpot off the telly, not anything like a genocidal tyrant.

[a m ole]

He's just like many other silver spoon son-of-a-billionaire kids, they stop growing up around the age of 8 because they never have to. All his awful behaviour has been enabled his entire life. Absolute man child. It's mirrored in his politics too, the simplicity of build a wall, ban the muslims, be mates with the bully (Russia), Uranium is lots of things like bad things, and so on and so on. He's never lived with consequences, ever. Here's a small loan of $1m and people to run a business for you! You've gone bankrupt? Hey Don, here's some more cash, do something else! Uh oh, bankrupt again? Don't worry Donnie.

I think it's quite a different personality to Hitler who was an intelligent, dangerous psychopath with power - a serial killer in government. Trump is a kid playing Sim America 2017 with all the cheat codes.

[walesavfc]

The Snowflakes/Quick to be offended Culture is Terrible and part of the vote that got Trump in, placards saying "NOT My President" "Love Trumps Hate"  well sorry snowflakes he is "Your President" 

If you can`t see that CNN and the likes are biased you should spread the spectrum of news you watch, take a look at fox, search the web.

 

[TrentVilla]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

The misrepresentation is in selecting Hitler as a comparison to Trump. Why pick the major example of a man infamous for genocide? Isn't that a bit dumb? I mean why not pick, as Dean infers, a different, non-genocidal example? By selecting a genuine murdering maniac as your comparison, you tend to draw the eye to the genocide and away from the common number of arms and legs. 

Theres also a significant invalidator, in that Trump calling journalists  dishonest in a press conference is not the same as actually outlawing free speech, or a free press. Talking crap on twitter is not the same as locking up and torturing dissenters.

finally, calling anyone a hitler, or making comparisons to hitler is a sign of losing a debate. Trump supporters would be righty utterly dismissive of people comparing the POTUS to hitler. It's a ludicrous thing to do.

Trump is an orange barmpot off the telly, not anything like a genocidal tyrant.

No it's not a misrepresentation, it's simply a comparison which as I said you are free to disagree with but it would be nice if you did so without labelling others views as 'dumb' and 'stupid'.

As for why pick Hitler. Because he is someone I've studied at quite some length and because I believe their are similarities. I may well have picked a non genocidal example had I studied them in the same way or seen the similarities I think exist. It is quite possible that Trump is also similar to any number of other examples of political leaders that doesn't though make the comparison I made untrue.

I would have thought it so obvious as to not need stating I wasn't talking about genocide when making the comparison.

You can say I'm losing the debate if you wish, frankly I wasn't aware I'd even entered one. 

[Chindie]

There's something quite funny about a 'political movement' that goes on about dissenting voices being 'snowflakes' whose commander in chief spends a considerable amount of time whinging about people not being nice to him and doing what they're told.

As for the media being biased... They're all calling him out on his lying (except Breitbart, but that's barely media at all, and Alex Jones, who is a cretin). Even Fox. There's a 10 minute video of one of Fox's leading anchors the other day going on a exhausted diatribe about Trump lying, with guests agreeing. Fox is against him too. Because he constantly lies, about everything, and there's question marks all over his administration already.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Chindie

[a m ole]

16 minutes ago, walesavfc said:

The Snowflakes/Quick to be offended Culture is Terrible and part of the vote that got Trump in, placards saying "NOT My President" "Love Trumps Hate"  well sorry snowflakes he is "Your President" 

If you can`t see that CNN and the likes are biased you should spread the spectrum of news you watch, take a look at fox, search the web.

 

Didn't realise the Donald was a Villan!

[StefanAVFC]

19 minutes ago, walesavfc said:

 you should spread the spectrum of news you watch, take a look at fox, 

 

The cognitive dissonance is staggering  

[NurembergVillan]

22 minutes ago, walesavfc said:

The Snowflakes/Quick to be offended Culture is Terrible and part of the vote that got Trump in, placards saying "NOT My President" "Love Trumps Hate"  well sorry snowflakes he is "Your President" 

If you can`t see that CNN and the likes are biased you should spread the spectrum of news you watch, take a look at fox, search the web.

 

Since Trump's inauguration, I've been meaning to take my Irony Filter for a service.  I can't tell if people are being serious any more.

[HanoiVillan]

I've been thinking about historical comparisons a lot lately, but the individual that seems to leap out most strongly for me is Silvio Berlusconi. They've got the billions, they've got a similar aesthetic (forcing themselves unwanted on women being very much part of the image they project), they've got similar conflicts of interest in everything they do because of their lives before government, and they both seem to have a greater affinity for campaigning than governing. 

It's the best I've got so far. If we're being hopeful about it, Berlusconi was very horrible to immigrants and asylum seekers, but there was no major blood on the streets. 

21 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There's something quite funny about a 'political movement' that goes on about dissenting voices being 'snowflakes' whose commander in chief spends a considerable amount of time whinging about people not being nice to him and doing what they're told.

I believe the psychological term is 'projection'. The essentially 'I know you are, but what am I' nature of the 'snowflake' complaint has been obvious to me for quite a while now. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by HanoiVillan

[TrentVilla]

9 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Since Trump's inauguration, I've been meaning to take my Irony Filter for a service.  I can't tell if people are being serious any more.

I know a great garage, they'll do you a good price.

[Keyblade]

37 minutes ago, walesavfc said:

The Snowflakes/Quick to be offended Culture is Terrible and part of the vote that got Trump in, placards saying "NOT My President" "Love Trumps Hate"  well sorry snowflakes he is "Your President" 

If you can`t see that CNN and the likes are biased you should spread the spectrum of news you watch, take a look at fox, search the web.

 

Turns out Donald and the people in his movement were even bigger snowflakes. Dude can't even take a slightly critical news article without throwing a fit. I've started to realize that the entire movement is about projection. 

[Keyblade]

I posted this in here before, but Trump ticks almost all of the facism boxes. People say Hitler because he's the most famous of the lot, but Mussolini does seem a better fit as @HanoiVillan pointed out.

Quote

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

 

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed

to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections

 

[HanoiVillan]

Berlusconi, not Mussolini!

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

No it's not a misrepresentation, it's simply a comparison which as I said you are free to disagree with but it would be nice if you did so without labelling others views as 'dumb' and 'stupid'.....

You can say I'm losing the debate if you wish, frankly I wasn't aware I'd even entered one. 

No offence was intended, Trent, and I'd like to point out that I said I think the comparison thing (not the people making it) is "dumb" and "stupid". Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. I'm not trying to insult other posters.

As for the debate part - again, mine was a general point that once people start calling others "(for acting like) Hitler" - say calling website moderators, or politicians or police or teachers or anyone in some kind of position - that's a pretty good way of telling that the argument being made, or debate being had, has been lost.

I just googled Trump Hitler comparisons and plenty of media and internet people are making the comparison and they're all wrong. The counter argument is also made, and this is a good example

Quote

There are some fundamental things to understand about Hitler:

1. He took over a small, failing state that didn’t have separated government, enumerated powers or checks and balances. It’s difficult for a guy like that to show up here, in this system.

2. His entire political career was violent from the beginning. There was always death in his wake. He didn’t just suddenly “turn” violent. It was a pattern …as it always is with sociopaths. This is THE most important thing to watch; the violence. I always keep an eye on who is rioting …breaking things …throwing rocks and bombs. It doesn’t make them Nazis. But it signals how far they’re willing to go.

3. He entered office with his own personal military construct (the SS) with allegiance to him ONLY. They would carry out things the regular military would never carry out: i.e. the murder of private citizens and political opponents. Nothing like that exists or COULD exist in America. We simply wouldn’t allow it.

4. He didn’t start out just killing Jews. He started out euthanizing people with special needs …for the betterment of the care-givers’ lives. (You can decide which side of the aisle favors the extermination of “inconvenient” people).

5. He disarmed the population, then nationalized healthcare and education. (Two-out-of-three of those are Bernie Sanders moves …But, guess what? Bernie isn’t Hitler either …not by a long shot)

The list goes on and on. But the deal is this:

Hitler was a real life murdering sociopath. He wasn’t just a charismatic speaker who incrementally fell into bad behavior. He wasn’t just a racist corrupted by unfettered power. In other words, you or I probably couldn’t end up being Hitler. A garden variety KKK leader probably couldn’t end up being Hitler either …or a community organizer …or a New York real-estate tycoon. It’s not that easy or simple.

NONE of our American presidents have ever been Hitler. But the people of Germany certainly thought FDR was a murdering dictator when B-17s started dropping bombs on them. This is why you have to KNOW what you believe and why you believe it. Good guys and bad guys are often in the eyes of the beholder. And they often look similar in the fog of conflict. I would imagine Japanese Americans in internment camps wondered if their president was Hitler-like. Nope. Horrible act …but not close to Hitler.

To that point, ironically, the American president who could’ve actually been likened to Hitler (before Hitler) in some of his methods was …wait for it …Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln broke more constitutional law than any other president in U.S history. He imprisoned political opponents without due process. He suspended habeas corpus. He was personally responsible for the deaths of six hundred thousand people.

He invaded countries that had declared their own sovereignty and forced them back into a union they didn’t want to be a part of. He unilaterally annexed Nevada, without 60 thousand residents, (a pre-requisite for becoming a state) in order to carry it and win the 1864 election. In other words, he pretty much rigged it.

And when he was killed by one of the highest paid and most famous actors of his day (ironic …don’t you think?), the actor screamed “thus always to tyrants!” (in latin) because the man thought he was being a patriot for ridding the world of a dictator. But he wasn’t …and he didn’t.

Lincoln did all of those things to end and win the Civil War. And today we love him for it …as we should. Because in the end, his vision was right …even though his methods were suspect in the heat of the moment.

When people think they’re seeing a Hitler, they might actually – sometimes – be seeing something closer to a Churchill. Before WWII everyone thought Churchill was the big bad wolf. His own people hated him and thought he was a Hitler type character (again …pre-Hilter). But he just kept saying, “guys …I’m telling you. This Hitler guy is the real problem. Not me.” And he turned out to be right. There’s a difference between an abrasive leader who makes you uncomfortable …and a despot.

Now, people are comparing Donald Trump to Hitler. And the countdown has officially begun, to …well …I don’t know …but something really bad. I get that someone who is combative with the press and who wants to vet refugees and shut down open immigration fits the bill some are always looking for when it comes to finally getting their “Hitler” villain.

But if you study enough about it, you realize the guy vetting and banning refugees is probably not Hitler …the guy CREATING refugees probably is.

If we keep looking for Hitler in every United States president we disagree with, we’re not going to recognize the real one when he actually shows up …in a different country.

 

[Keyblade]

35 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Berlusconi, not Mussolini!

my bad.

I originally typed Berlusconi then thought, that's weird and changed it. Then I thought I don't remember Mussolini being a billionaire. Safe to say, I need to re-read your post. 

[chrisp65]

There's potentially a very long way to go with Trump watching and commentating.

We need some context. If he bans abortion, well 'all' he's done there is return the legislation to where it was in the 1970's. If he bans gay marriage, well that's a return to....2015. As for his criticism of the media, well the U.S. media makes ours look bland, boring and balanced. Just watch some of CNN's content for american consumption. Everything is just liberal opinion pieces with overboard shock expressions being pulled by the anchors. The level of acting from news 'readers' in the states is right up there with the silent movies. It's ridiculous. We have nothing like the bias and drama, yet we are trying to control our media with new watchdogs.

If we're already shouting Hitler stuff, it's all going to burn out by June with nowhere left to go, no higher octave to scream.

If he invades a few countries and kills some people overseas he'll be up there with every previous U.S. president. Agent orange, the Contras, the road to Basra, Libya. These were not done on Trump's watch. If he stops illegal immigration is that truly something worthy of a 1930's comparison? It's not, of its self, a rotten aim to have.

The guy is horrible, he's a pussy grabbing man child.

Give the guy a bit more time and rope. 

[Rodders]

I specified 1931 to (attempt) to differentiate from the monstrous actions that later emerged, once he consolidated his power base. 

There are loads of other comparators of course and maybe there are better ones. The argument you @blandy post above is fair too, Assad fits the comparison more readily, but the urgency for me is that there is a very slippery road being driven down. At the moment it is merely (!) outlandish and distasteful nationalism which is exploiting fear to develop a cult at a level that has gone beyond some of the norms of western countries recently. It is also the re shifting his own power base in the WH with that Bannon psychopath a constant presence, the Gorkas in full on Tariq Ali mode etc. The addition of explicitly undermining the media at least shows an intent. Of course there are in theory more checks in place than in Weimar for example and frankly before he genuinely did get close to committing violence directly action would be taken by one agency or another.  But the rhetoric and actions displayed for a country that is an apparent emblem of democracy ( ok, there's much to say on how much or long that has been a false premise for some time anyway thanks to corporate manoevres over the past 50 years etc ) reflect a speedy pivot towards a break from even trying to symbolise democracy.

There are many paths this Presidency can take of course but at this juncture, early on, it does, in my view, share too many features with some of the worst leaders of the past. Maybe it is just par for the playbook at this point but it is deeply worrying

Edited February 19, 2017 by Rodders

[blandy]

22 minutes ago, Rodders said:

it does, in my view, share too many features with some of the worst leaders of the past.

Yeah, it does, and that was my point - pick them as comparisons, not a sociopathic genocidal maniac. Picking the genocidal maniac just causes the similarities with just basically "bad" leaders from the past, or elsewhere is just ....dumb. Sorry, I don't mean any offence to anyone, but like crisp says it leaves nowhere to go and it is wildly inaccurate.

Trump is a floundering, overindulged syrup toting dingbat off that reality TV. He's a terrible leader and hasn't got a clue about representing the USA with dignity and consideration and humility and class. He's surrounded by some dodgepots, has conflicts of interest and will come unstuck at some point not too far off if he doesn't change tack and learn fast.

How fast the various senators and congressmen and women grow a spine will be interesting to see.