Ashley Westwood

[rodders0223]

Barry Bannan brought more to the team than Westwood.

[Isa]

 

That's fine.

But just because you choose to ignore statistics doesn't make the irrelevant.
You might think they're flimsy, but it's a level playing field. Unless you have kept track of everybody's stats as defined by your own logic, then this is all we have to gon, statistically.

Or we can just go by assists (which are a byproduct of creating genuine chances) and I'll redirect you to what was said above - that it has been about two-and-a-half years since his last assist from open play. It's not like he is regularly creating clear-cut chances which are continually being squandered either, as far as I'm concerned. His contribution in this aspect, as with most aspects, is completely overstated. I should add that if he could competently serve his primary function in regard to his defensive duties then this would all be trivial anyway. 

 

Don't get me wrong though, I think stats can enhance analysis in general (context is always important) but just I'm not keen on this one for the reason given. When it comes to things like tackles, interceptions, PSR etc. the criteria is unambiguous. What is considered a chance is subjective in any case and ultimately impossible to quantify statistically. An effort on goal is not a chance in itself.

[a m ole]

The people who compile the stats are aware of their ambiguity and have ways to clear it up and make their stats relevant though. I find it interesting that you are accepting of assists but not a pass where the striker missed, there's all sorts of variables like how many forwards are in the box when he gets the ball compared to other positions on the pitch and also in relation to other teams as well as obviously our forwards have not been prolific. Gabby's one on one **** up after a brilliant Westwood through ball is the major one sticking out in the memory.

Also tackle stats are just as ambiguous, you can put pressure on a player and force them to go out wide or turn back and recycle the ball instead of make the run or pass toward goal. In any case, and I brought up the stats on this after around 6 games, Westwood was statistically the best in terms of defensive stats of all the 4 centra midfielders (per game, not just because he's played more minutes). Not sure if that's true now but it was at the time.

Edited October 23, 2015 by a m ole

[Stevo985]

 

That's fine.

But just because you choose to ignore statistics doesn't make the irrelevant.
You might think they're flimsy, but it's a level playing field. Unless you have kept track of everybody's stats as defined by your own logic, then this is all we have to gon, statistically.

 

Or we can just go by assists (which are a byproduct of creating genuine chances) and I'll redirect you to what was said above - that it has been about two-and-a-half years since his last assist from open play. It's not like he is regularly creating clear-cut chances which are continually being squandered either, as far as I'm concerned. His contribution in this aspect, as with most aspects, is completely overstated. I should add that if he could competently serve his primary function in regard to his defensive duties then this would all be trivial anyway. 

 

Don't get me wrong though, I think stats can enhance analysis in general (context is always important) but just I'm not keen on this one for the reason given. When it comes to things like tackles, interceptions, PSR etc. the criteria is unambiguous. What is considered a chance is subjective in any case and ultimately impossible to quantify statistically. An effort on goal is not a chance in itself.

You like stats, but you're not keen on this one because it counters your opinion, basically.

[Zatman]

I dont agree because key passes is a shit stat if it includes corner kicks

I would like to see an open play key pass stat to see what Westwood numbers are?

[kayarcee]

Barry Bannan brought more to the team than Westwood.

Barry Bannan brought more to the team than most gave him credit for.

Barry Bannan and Ashley Westwood are two sides of the same coin. With Bannan it was all "he never does the simple things! He's all Hollywood balls!" With Westwood it's "why doesn't he try an attacking pass! I only ever see him pass sideways and backwards!" When the reality is somewhere in the middle for both. 

Edited October 23, 2015 by kayarcee

[Zatman]

Bannan took better corner kicks thats for sure

[Isa]

The people who compile the stats are aware of their ambiguity and have ways to clear it up and make their stats relevant though. I find it interesting that you are accepting of assists but not a pass where the striker missed, there's all sorts of variables like how many forwards are in the box when he gets the ball compared to other positions on the pitch and also in relation to other teams as well as obviously our forwards have not been prolific. Gabby's one on one **** up after a brilliant Westwood through ball is the major one sticking out in the memory.

Also tackle stats are just as ambiguous, you can put pressure on a player and force them to go out wide or turn back and recycle the ball instead of make the run or pass toward goal. In any case, and I brought up the stats on this after around 6 games, Westwood was statistically the best in terms of defensive stats of all the 4 centra midfielders (per game, not just because he's played more minutes). Not sure if that's true now but it was at the time.

 

Actually, I made direct reference to any possible mitigation on the grounds that chances created by him are wasted. Yes, there are occasions where that has happened but on a regular basis as the key pass stats would indicate? I'd say no. 

 

Your point in the second paragraph is valid but it isn't what I meant. A tackle is the process of dispossessing an opposition player, there is no dispute over that. Not the case with the definition of a chance. The key pass stats do not unequivocally prove that a player has created x amount of chances. Unlike with that of a tackle or a pass, the definition of a chance is subjective. To try and quantify it, statisticians accept any attempt at goal as qualifying as a chance. Therefore the basis of this statistic isn't equal to the others and I see no reason why it should be treated as such.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Isa

[Isa]

 

You like stats, but you're not keen on this one because it counters your opinion, basically.

Not quite but at least you gave it a go.

[a m ole]

Yes 'key passes' by their definition are not equal. But Westwood isn't a chance creating attacking midfielder, he plays from very deep, but still contributes. That is the point being made when people notice the Key Pass statistic. Look at the rest of our team too, how many assists does Grealish have? Gil? Gana? Veretout? How many did Cleverley get last year? Delph only had 3 playing much further forward. 

Also, if a corner leads to a header that can be classed as an attempt on goal, what is the problem? The corners that get cleared don't get classed as key passes. There have also definitely been corners this season where our players have been free and headed wide or at the keeper. How about when Richards was pulled back by Darmian at Utd and still managed to get a head on the ball, if he wasn't impeded that was in. Richards also missed a free header from a Westwood cross from the left (in play) against Stoke. (4.15) http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/10/03/aston-villa-vs-stoke-city-highlights/

 

It's funny because I just think he's a useful player to have in the squad. I also don't really care about statistics that much. I'll bow out now though, I think a lot of the evidence contrary to the highly negative opinions of him is all in here to see, if that won't at least make people question their original judgement then fine.

The least I can say for you guys is you don't lack conviction.

Edited October 23, 2015 by a m ole
brokelink

[Woodytom]

There's a reason players like delph Cleverley and Benteke had other sides, much bigger n better than ours after them and westwood doesn't. 

Our best players have left and we've got worse. Simple as that really. You can throw meaningless key pass stats around all you like but we're sat in 19th with **** all points because our team is littered with dross like westwood.

[sexbelowsound]

There's a reason players like delph Cleverley and Benteke had other sides, much bigger n better than ours after them and westwood doesn't. 

Our best players have left and we've got worse. Simple as that really. You can throw meaningless key pass stats around all you like but we're sat in 19th with **** all points because our team is littered with dross like westwood.

Who were these much bigger and better sides that were in for Cleverley?

[Woodytom]

There's a reason players like delph Cleverley and Benteke had other sides, much bigger n better than ours after them and westwood doesn't. 

Our best players have left and we've got worse. Simple as that really. You can throw meaningless key pass stats around all you like but we're sat in 19th with **** all points because our team is littered with dross like westwood.

Who were these much bigger and better sides that were in for Cleverley?

The team he went to.

[sexbelowsound]

There's a reason players like delph Cleverley and Benteke had other sides, much bigger n better than ours after them and westwood doesn't. 

Our best players have left and we've got worse. Simple as that really. You can throw meaningless key pass stats around all you like but we're sat in 19th with **** all points because our team is littered with dross like westwood.

Who were these much bigger and better sides that were in for Cleverley?

The team he went to.

I take your point about Delph and Benteke but you are stretching it a bit there with Cleverley and Everton IMO.

[HanoiVillan]

I think Everton being a 'bigger and better side' is pretty much cut-and-shut myself. I don't often agree with Woodytom, but he's right in this case. 

[DCJonah]

No doubt at all Everton are currently bigger and better than us.

[Zatman]

I think Spurs were chsing Cleverley as well, if Westwood was for sale I couldnt see him being signed by anybody but top half of Championship

[villa4europe]

I think we'd comfortably sell Westwood for £4-5m as a a squad player for the bottom half of the prem or the top half of the championship

I don't think he's that bad a player, he's just in no way shape or form the key player that we as a club are asking him to be

If he was our 4th choice central midfielder the. I don't think any of us would care, but he's not, he's first choice and its criminal

[Zatman]

Thats the thing I dont think like Guzan that he would get into a Premier League side unless a desperate newly promoted team. I remember people thought Lowton and Bent would end up in lower reaches of Premier League and they are in Championship

[tarjei]

I'm a bit on the fence with him. I like him as a carachter but no really as a player. Lambert said something like "he keeps us ticking", which to me means he is a simple player who is there to do a simple role, namely to pick up the ball deep and spread it. Which he does fine. But other players can do this, and also bring other things to the side. Gana can do it albeit with a limited passing range, but he can also break down play, dribble and play through passes. Sanchez can do it while also being a holding player, but he is slow on the ball and have a tendency to make mistakes. My problem with Westwood is his style of passing and lack of creativity behind it. There doesn't seem to be a plan behind it. Maybe that's down to the coaching and the managers we've had but it seem to be in his makeup.

He is decent in our own half and can pick up the ball and spread it wide, but that's about it. He has improved his defensive game, but not to the height of anything that is going to bring us to another level. His floated passes often slow us down. A good example of someone who does this well is Boateng at Bayern. They overload one side with players, give it to Boateng, who plays it crossfield to a winger in tons of space. There's a plan behind it and a reason for doing so, and there's pace on the ball. When Westy does it it's usually to the fullback who's in a bit of space, but by the time the pass reaches him he has already been closed down.

When he does venture in to the final third his passes are usually much too safe. Sideways, backwards, or on the off chance he tries a forward pass it's rarely into space but to feet. In all his time at Villa all I can remember is that one through pass to Gabby against Norwich. I think he can add more of that to his game, but some players just doesn't have it in them to play others into space. Grealish does this a million times better.

It's the same with his corners. They might reach their area of destination more often than not, but they are very hard to score from unless you are a beast in the air like Benteke. Crossed corners should be swung in and dropping into a danger area or out-swingers to be flicked on. I was watching Carew's goals for Villa the other day and he scored a lot of goals from set pieces that had lots of curl and drop. Westwood should have a look too.