Ashley Westwood

[Zatman]

I dont need some stats from a website to know that Westwood is average and takes one of the worst corners in football. I have 2 eyes and see enough every saturday to know how poor he can be

players like Westwood playing over 100 games for the club is an indication why we are shit

[a m ole]

your 2 eyes completely misinterpreted that corner, so I'm not going to take your word for it.

I wanted stats to prove you don't have a wild imagination, anyway.

[KSV]

I dont need some stats from a website to know that Westwood is average and takes one of the worst corners in football. I have 2 eyes and see enough every saturday to know how poor he can be

players like Westwood playing over 100 games for the club is an indication why we are shit

spot on. Give someone else a run in the side

[KSV]

Westwood seems the type of players that r needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

How many of our players have had 'good moments' this season? There's certainly been moments where he's done impressive things but is anyone really going to go back through 15-16 hours of footage to pick them out? that's silly. stats are easily accessible. Unless you count good moments as scoring a goal, but they don't come that often for a deep lying midfielder in a poor side.

 

no way Westwood is creating 2 goalscoring chances a game, his over hit crosses that Gestede or Richards are stretching to reach is what is getting him these stats

He is probably the worst corner taker in top 2 divisions in England

You watch all 44 teams with enough regularity to know that do you?

well since I see better set-pieces in my local park I would hope 43 other teams are able to employ a player who can take a proper corner

Barry **** Bannan takes better corners

Zatman.

http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/10/17/chelsea-vs-aston-villa-highlights-full-match/#4

Watch the corner you keep talking about again, 27:40 in on 2nd Half highlights (72mins). Gestede runs towards the ball. HOW is that over hit? It was an intentional move to allow Gestede to lose his marker.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're so sure about what you saw, but you misjudged it. Probably because you have preconceived notions about him as a player.

show us highlights of the many times he hit the first defender or just went to close to the keeper. He's not good enough. Find all the stats you like but how many corners have we scored from in the last four years Westwood been taking them? Count them on one hand.. All this with Benteke and Gestede to aim at. Not good enough 

Edited October 22, 2015 by KSV

[Brumstopdogs]

Would be interesting to see how we got on without Westwood in the side. When I watch him I don't like what he does defensively, I don't think he offers enough offensively, he takes awful set pieces and the balance of the midfield often doesn't seem right with him in the team.

Needs dropping.

[a m ole]

Westwood seems the type of players that r needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

How many of our players have had 'good moments' this season? There's certainly been moments where he's done impressive things but is anyone really going to go back through 15-16 hours of footage to pick them out? that's silly. stats are easily accessible. Unless you count good moments as scoring a goal, but they don't come that often for a deep lying midfielder in a poor side.

 

no way Westwood is creating 2 goalscoring chances a game, his over hit crosses that Gestede or Richards are stretching to reach is what is getting him these stats

He is probably the worst corner taker in top 2 divisions in England

You watch all 44 teams with enough regularity to know that do you?

well since I see better set-pieces in my local park I would hope 43 other teams are able to employ a player who can take a proper corner

Barry **** Bannan takes better corners

Zatman.

http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/10/17/chelsea-vs-aston-villa-highlights-full-match/#4

Watch the corner you keep talking about again, 27:40 in on 2nd Half highlights (72mins). Gestede runs towards the ball. HOW is that over hit? It was an intentional move to allow Gestede to lose his marker.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're so sure about what you saw, but you misjudged it. Probably because you have preconceived notions about him as a player.

show us highlights of the many times he hit the first defender or just went to close to the keeper. He's not good enough. Find all the stats you like but how many corners have we scored from in the last four years Westwood been taking them? Count them on one hand.. All this with Benteke and Gestede to aim at. Not good enough 

you want me to find evidence for you? do it yourself.

 

I would prefer Westwood would whip corners in with pace. Actually, I would prefer our coaches would ask him to. I thought he should have been dropped at Chelsea in favour of a bit more steel in midfield. I wouldn't begrudge another player having a shot in the side in his absence.

Al I object to is the notion that he's a terrible, awful player who can't take a corner (which is hilarious that someone could get so upset at the way someone gets a ball from the corner to the penalty spot) and is League One standard. It's just not true, it's a hugely flawed rhetoric that even the most questionable of stats can at the very very least cast a degree of doubt on. If Westwood is an awful player and his presence is the reason we have been in and out the relegation zone the last 4 years then what does that say about the rest of our midfield? show me how they have been in any way more impressive this season.

[KSV]

Westwood seems the type of players that r needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

How many of our players have had 'good moments' this season? There's certainly been moments where he's done impressive things but is anyone really going to go back through 15-16 hours of footage to pick them out? that's silly. stats are easily accessible. Unless you count good moments as scoring a goal, but they don't come that often for a deep lying midfielder in a poor side.

 

no way Westwood is creating 2 goalscoring chances a game, his over hit crosses that Gestede or Richards are stretching to reach is what is getting him these stats

He is probably the worst corner taker in top 2 divisions in England

You watch all 44 teams with enough regularity to know that do you?

well since I see better set-pieces in my local park I would hope 43 other teams are able to employ a player who can take a proper corner

Barry **** Bannan takes better corners

Zatman.

http://www.fullmatchesandshows.com/2015/10/17/chelsea-vs-aston-villa-highlights-full-match/#4

Watch the corner you keep talking about again, 27:40 in on 2nd Half highlights (72mins). Gestede runs towards the ball. HOW is that over hit? It was an intentional move to allow Gestede to lose his marker.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're so sure about what you saw, but you misjudged it. Probably because you have preconceived notions about him as a player.

show us highlights of the many times he hit the first defender or just went to close to the keeper. He's not good enough. Find all the stats you like but how many corners have we scored from in the last four years Westwood been taking them? Count them on one hand.. All this with Benteke and Gestede to aim at. Not good enough 

you want me to find evidence for you? do it yourself.

 

I would prefer Westwood would whip corners in with pace. Actually, I would prefer our coaches would ask him to. I thought he should have been dropped at Chelsea in favour of a bit more steel in midfield. I wouldn't begrudge another player having a shot in the side in his absence.

Al I object to is the notion that he's a terrible, awful player who can't take a corner (which is hilarious that someone could get so upset at the way someone gets a ball from the corner to the penalty spot) and is League One standard. It's just not true, it's a hugely flawed rhetoric that even the most questionable of stats can at the very very least cast a degree of doubt on. If Westwood is an awful player and his presence is the reason we have been in and out the relegation zone the last 4 years then what does that say about the rest of our midfield? show me how they have been in any way more impressive this season.

Why would i waste my time when i know its something like 4 or 5 goals in 4 seasons. We went one season entirely without scoring a corner.

Anyway.. i dont think he is a terrible footballer..  i just dont think he should be a starter every bloody match. Hes a squad player. If Gueye gets injured.. fine bring him in.. but no way should he be a starter.

[Keyblade]

17 key passes?

 How many assists , apart from corners which don't really count, has he got.

 

These key passes, do they include corners?

 

 

I thought his corners were shit though. Now they're good enough to count as key passes? 

[HanoiVillan]

So this thread is still a no-go zone then? Gotcha. 

[Stevo985]

Westwood seems the type of players that needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

Nonsense.

There are plenty of examples of good Westwood moments. But when anybody brings them up they get plainly ignored by some.

Stats are an attempt to quantify his good moments in black and white so people can't just ignore them. Doesn't work though.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Stevo985

[Stevo985]

17 key passes?

 How many assists , apart from corners which don't really count, has he got.

 

These key passes, do they include corners?

 

They do, yes, which inflates it even more. The issue here is that in order to make it quantifiable, the statistical definition of a chance is far looser than common definition.

But those key passes that you and a few others have decided don't count, for some reason, still count for everybody else. So if you take them away from Westwood you take them away from everybody. So you'd probably be looking at some less inflated but still relatively similar stats.

[bobzy]

Would be interesting to see how we got on without Westwood in the side. When I watch him I don't like what he does defensively, I don't think he offers enough offensively, he takes awful set pieces and the balance of the midfield often doesn't seem right with him in the team.

Needs dropping.

He's pretty key to getting the ball forward IMO.  Maybe Veretout can come in and do a similar job (although I actually think they look pretty good playing together) but Sanchez and Gueye don't play in the same manner at all.  Our goal against Blues, as an example, is exactly what Westwood does well.  Wins ball in the middle of the park, plays it through to Grealish, Grealish out to Amavi, cross -> Gestede goal.

 

I still don't understand the hate for Westwood.  People saying "I watch him with my eyes and don't need stats!" - you do realise the more important things are what actually happens than your distorted view of him doing everything wrong, right?

[Isa]

 

But those key passes that you and a few others have decided don't count, for some reason, still count for everybody else. So if you take them away from Westwood you take them away from everybody. So you'd probably be looking at some less inflated but still relatively similar stats.

Actually on this I'm just going by what I've seen during the matches, if that's alright with you. He hasn't created 7 chances from corners nor 17 chances overall to my mind. If I were rolling out key pass stats to big up other players, then you may have had a point.

[weedman]

The thing with Westwood is that he's not overly offensive or defensive, he's a transition player. He can pick the ball up and transition it from out defensive players onto the more offensive one's. To this end he really shouldn't play in a midfield 2, as you need people to do more in a midfield 2. However he could easily play alongside Sanchez in a DM position so Sanchez can win the ball back and rather than mess around with it for ages and lose it or try a killer ball and lose it he can give it to Westwood to move it forwards..

Delph used to do this for us (by dribbling, rather than passing) but he was/is far more mobile so wasn't caught out nearly as often.

Ideally you'd want 1 DM player who can break up play like Sanchez but move the ball around like Westwood but we don't have one (possibly Gana could be that player but haven't seen enough really to form an opinion). Put them two with a more attacking player like Veretout and it could work and could help cut out those endless punts upfield as there's a clear link between defense and attack.

Westwood can get the ball deep and move it forwards, but we need an offensive midfielder there to get the ball and keep it moving, otherwise we inevitably run out of options and it goes between midfield and defence for 10 minutes until we make a mistake and lose it or lump it upfield and hope for the best

[Stevo985]

 

But those key passes that you and a few others have decided don't count, for some reason, still count for everybody else. So if you take them away from Westwood you take them away from everybody. So you'd probably be looking at some less inflated but still relatively similar stats.

 

Actually on this I'm just going by what I've seen during the matches, if that's alright with you. He hasn't created 7 chances from corners nor 17 chances overall to my mind. If I were rolling out key pass stats to big up other players, then you may have had a point.

Keeping a tally are you?
And are you keeping a tally of everybody else in the league to compare it to?

 

Because the stats quoted are LITERALLY doing that.

 

So no, by your definition of a chance, Westwood probably hasn't created 17. That's absolutely fine.

But then if you use that definition to define the chances everybody else in the league are creating, then their chances created would be much lower too. That's the point I'm making.

[DCJonah]

Westwood seems the type of players that needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

Nonsense.

There are plenty of examples of good Westwood moments. But when anybody brings them up they get plainly ignored by some.

Stats are an attempt to quantify his good moments in black and white so people can't just ignore them. Doesn't work though.

are there? What good moments has he really had this year? How has he positively impacted the game? I'm sure the stats suggest he's creating plenty of key opportunities but I'm struggling to think of them. We're consistently shit, Westwood consistently plays and unlike others does nothing that stands out. Delph, benteke and now Richards stand out regardless of us being shit. Guzan in the past was the same. Does Westwood? 

 

[Isa]

@Stevo985

 

And again, you seem to be missing the point that I am not giving credence to them when it comes to any player - the premise is flimsy. You don't need key pass stats to know that Payet and Özil are creative players. Their assist figures do that just fine. Whereas Westwood's last assist from open play came in 2012/13. So unless anyone wants to highlight all these genuine goalscoring opportunties created by him during every game to corrospond with the statistics, then I'll be sticking to the perception I've gathered from watching our games, ta.

[Stevo985]

@Stevo985

 

And again, you seem to be missing the point that I am not giving credence to them when it comes to any player - the premise is flimsy. You don't need key pass stats to know that Payet and Özil are creative players. Their assist figures do that just fine. Whereas Westwood's last assist from open play came in 2012/13. So unless anyone wants to highlight all these genuine goalscoring opportunties created by him during every game to corrospond with the statistics, then I'll be sticking to the perception I've gathered from watching our games, ta.

That's fine.

But just because you choose to ignore statistics doesn't make the irrelevant.
You might think they're flimsy, but it's a level playing field. Unless you have kept track of everybody's stats as defined by your own logic, then this is all we have to gon, statistically.

[Stevo985]

Westwood seems the type of players that needs to have these stats thrown out because it's very rare people can give actual examples of his good moments. 

You didn't need stats to see how good delph and benteke were. Westwood needs to be dropped, I'd genuinely be interested to see how we play without him for a run of games. I truly believe we'd be better off.

Nonsense.

There are plenty of examples of good Westwood moments. But when anybody brings them up they get plainly ignored by some.

Stats are an attempt to quantify his good moments in black and white so people can't just ignore them. Doesn't work though.

are there? What good moments has he really had this year? How has he positively impacted the game? I'm sure the stats suggest he's creating plenty of key opportunities but I'm struggling to think of them. We're consistently shit, Westwood consistently plays and unlike others does nothing that stands out. Delph, benteke and now Richards stand out regardless of us being shit. Guzan in the past was the same. Does Westwood? 

 

Nobody was specifying this year. You're just defining that time frame to suit your argument.

Nevertheless, Westwood had some good performances in our first few matches this season.

Westwood has stood out plenty of times in the past. This season hasn't been his finest, but neither has it been for anybody else apart from Richards who is about the only player in the squad who has shone this season.

 

Stats are used here because, as will probably happen with this post, somebody will rpely and say "nah Westwood never does anything!". So then I or someone else posts a stat or two that shows he does do things, only to be met by "no! stats are meaningless. I use my eyes!"

[Zatman]

Season 1: Westwood started averagely and had a good end to the season

Season 2: started slow but had a solid season

Season 3 : was poor until Sherwood arrived and played his best game for club at Wembley

Season 4: Woeful