bobzy Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Can someone please succinctly summarise what they've done that's wrong? Like, "they spent <x> when they could only spend <y>" or something rather than "they've ruined football". I've just read about a load of charges and can't be arsed going into the detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, bobzy said: Can someone please succinctly summarise what they've done that's wrong? Like, "they spent <x> when they could only spend <y>" or something rather than "they've ruined football". I've just read about a load of charges and can't be arsed going into the detail. They don’t actually follow Financial Fair Play. They say they do but are allegedly cheating it at both ends. On one side they have fake sponsors deals which allows the owner to pump in more of their money, it just gets channeled via a shell company first or a friendly company like Etihad Airways (who are also controlled by Man City). On the other side they are alleged to make 2 sets of payments to staff. One official on the books to show to FFP regulators and then also a second salary off the books that FFP doesn’t see, topping up salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 Just now, LondonLax said: They don’t actually follow Financial Fair Play. They say they do but are allegedly cheating it at both ends. On one side they have fake sponsors deals which allows the owner to pump in more of their money, it just gets channeled via a shell company first or a friendly company like Etihad Airways (who are also controlled by Man City). On the other side they are alleged to make 2 sets of payments to staff. One official on the books to show to FFP regulators and then also a second salary off the books that FFP doesn’t see, topping up salaries. But what's the actual impact? How much have they exceeded FFP by with their dodgy routes etc? I hear they've cheated. I believe they've cheated. But there's no actual figures or anything going round. However, when others clubs are loosely connected to breaking FFP, it's like "Everton claim £300m revenue over Covid" or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, bobzy said: But what's the actual impact? What's the actual impact of cooking the books? Well, it's illegal first and foremost. Second, if you can only spend 50m a year (bad number but example) to stay within FFP but they double everyone's salary with another 50m. For every year they're not only exceeding FFP by 50m, but they're also hiding it. It's a double charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: What's the actual impact of cooking the books? Well, it's illegal first and foremost. Second, if you can only spend 50m a year (bad number but example) to stay within FFP but they double everyone's salary with another 50m. For every year they're not only exceeding FFP by 50m, but they're also hiding it. It's a double charge. Right, but again what's actually happened? This is just "well they've cheated" - which I understand, that's fine, but is there any actual detail or are people outraged over the charges more than anything else? Have they spent an extra £200m that they technically couldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post fightoffyour Posted April 12, 2023 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted April 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, bobzy said: Right, but again what's actually happened? This is just "well they've cheated" - which I understand, that's fine, but is there any actual detail or are people outraged over the charges more than anything else? Have they spent an extra £200m that they technically couldn't? There are years-long investigations going on to find our the exact amounts of all the overspending, but yes they will have spent hundreds of millions more than they would be allowed to (I say would be, because they've technically only spent what is allowed, but 1. those deals are overinflated [see following examples] and 2. off the books payments do overspend these amounts). Here are few examples of the overinflated sponsorship deals which the owners pumped money in to cover: Quote In the first example, Etisalat – an Emirati telecommunications company – had a deal with the club from 2012 onwards. On City’s own admission, however, the club’s owner – Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed al-Nahyan of the Abu Dhabi ruling family – did arrange payments understood to total £30m on behalf of Etisalat through his company Abu Dhabi United Group (ADUG) for sponsorship in 2012 and 2013. The telecoms company didn’t actually pay anything until 2015. City hadn’t even concluded a contract with Etilasat until that year but one had been agreed in principle. The payments were nevertheless recorded in City’s financial statements – as provided to the English FA for Uefa’s Financial Fair Play process – as sponsorship. The second example concerns the allegation that ADUG also funded the sponsorship from Etihad. That charge came from information found in the City emails published by Der Spiegel in November 2018, where the club’s then financial officers set out that the Abu Dhabi airline was paying only £8m of sponsorships worth £35, £65m and £67.5m from the 2012-13, 2013-14 and 2015-16 seasons, respectively, with the rest coming from ADUG. So in these two examples alone we have £30m + £35m + 65m + £67.5m - £8m = £189.5m in overinflated sponsorship deals. Then we have off the books payments: Quote According to a report in Der Spiegel, the German magazine leading a consortium of publications reporting on the Football Leaks information, Mancini was offered separate arrangements by the City hierarchy which would help the club get around Uefa’s financial fair play (FFP) regulations. Mancini agreed a £1.45m annual salary with City when he joined in 2009, plus bonuses and incentives, but also allegedly a £1.75m salary with Al Jazira. This is evidence of doubling the salary of one manager, and £1.75m annually sounds like small fry compared to the above, but bear in mind that they were/are likely doing this with all playing/coaching staff, and again you're getting to the order of £100m per year overspending on their FFP calculations. And don't forget that's overspending after their FFP allowance has already been artificially increased by the overinflated sponsorship deals. All in all, you're likely looking at hundreds of millions spent above what FFP should allow them every year, for as long as 15 years. So we're potentially talking the order of a billion here in total (allegedly). Edited April 12, 2023 by fightoffyour 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 12, 2023 Share Posted April 12, 2023 der spiegel is the best place to start bobzy, they've been after them for years and have written a fair few lengthy in depth investigations in to them they hate them...but are unfortunately very quiet on what bayern do to german football (the story behind bayern's audi deal is worth a read up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 What is the latest on the investigation into the cheaters?, all seems very quiet.....is the only sound I can hear is the noise of it being swept under the carpet?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted April 13, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: What is the latest on the investigation into the cheaters?, all seems very quiet.....is the only sound I can hear is the noise of it being swept under the carpet?.... They said it would be several months. I think the expectation is probably during the close season, which would certainly be the least messy way to do it if any serious charges are actually applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 We're Juventus found guilty of something similar, or is this completely different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo_b Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 12/04/2023 at 09:26, bobzy said: Right, but again what's actually happened? This is just "well they've cheated" - which I understand, that's fine, but is there any actual detail or are people outraged over the charges more than anything else? Have they spent an extra £200m that they technically couldn't? Don’t have exact numbers for you, but I’m pretty confident at least £100 million which allowed them to buy Grealish from us for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 On 12/04/2023 at 09:26, bobzy said: Right, but again what's actually happened? This is just "well they've cheated" - which I understand, that's fine, but is there any actual detail or are people outraged over the charges more than anything else? Have they spent an extra £200m that they technically couldn't? Well they've clearly spent more than they should have been able to. They've clearly committed fraud to also cover this up. Exact figures might be difficult to nail down.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlobalVillan Posted April 13, 2023 Share Posted April 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Tommo_b said: Don’t have exact numbers for you, but I’m pretty confident at least £100 million which allowed them to buy Grealish from us for a start. Yes and it's exactly that kind of advantage they gained by their cheating. They weakened us just because they could, as they are owned by a state in all but name and continue to cheat football with their financial crimes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 6 hours ago, GlobalVillan said: Yes and it's exactly that kind of advantage they gained by their cheating. They weakened us just because they could, as they are owned by a state in all but name and continue to cheat football with their financial crimes. On the other hand we got £100m for a player who was not worth anywhere near that Just a shame we wasted most of it… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: On the other hand we got £100m for a player who was not worth anywhere near that Just a shame we wasted most of it… We didn't waste it They weakened us by more than £100m...he was worth more to us 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaParkAvenue Posted April 14, 2023 Share Posted April 14, 2023 57 minutes ago, LondonLax said: On the other hand we got £100m for a player who was not worth anywhere near that Just a shame we wasted most of it… I'm quite sure Man City wouldn't sell Grealish if you offered them 100m now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 Just read on the BBC footy website that they are planning an extension to their ground to bring it up to 60k (even more empty seats). Costs to be about 300 million... I wonder what dodgy deals are being done to push that through...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, delboy54 said: Just read on the BBC footy website that they are planning an extension to their ground to bring it up to 60k (even more empty seats). Costs to be about 300 million... I wonder what dodgy deals are being done to push that through...? Seems a lot for 6,000 seats and a fan zone. We are currently budgeting 100 mil for a 16,000 new stand and live venue. Unless that turns out to be laughably inaccurate. Edited April 18, 2023 by The Fun Factory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 £300m sounds crazy but I assume there's more to the development than just the extra seats. It'll mean many more empty seats for their midweek games and thousands more tourists at their home games. They'll end up with no atmosphere at the ground, if there even is one at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted April 18, 2023 Share Posted April 18, 2023 21 minutes ago, delboy54 said: Just read on the BBC footy website that they are planning an extension to their ground to bring it up to 60k (even more empty seats). Costs to be about 300 million... I wonder what dodgy deals are being done to push that through...? Don't stadium enhancements not count towards FFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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